georgeingraham Posted February 25, 2019 Report Share Posted February 25, 2019 I am reaching out for help to fire this Song Dynasty ( 960 - 1279 AD ) ceramic / stoneware Chinese funerary jar. I went to a couple of local shops, but one would not help, the other did not understand what they were looking at. Tried contacting the Washington Clay Arts Association, but no reply. For what ever reason the kiln attendant ( got drunk and passed out , who knows. ) did not leave this in long enough to melt the glaze. Would like to fire this at 1250 to 1300 °C in oxidizing to neutral atmosphere. One option of course is to use a modern kiln, but it would be a lot more fun to fire in a traditional earth/clay outdoor wood burning kiln. An opportunity to fire a piece like this is likely never going to happen again and would like very much to hang out at the kiln, document, take pics, and just sort of feel like am back in the day and doing this piece a little justice. Maybe do a late night dance around the kiln Any help would be greatly appreciated ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgeingraham Posted February 25, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgeingraham Posted February 25, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgeingraham Posted February 25, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2019 Here are a few examples for what the glaze should end up looking like. Although, most Tang and Song Dynasty type dark glazes pass thought a teadust phase as they fire, if underfired, that is, if the kiln temp is not quite high enough or if the appropriate temp is not maintained for a sufficient length of time, the glaze will mature tea dust rather than black. With Greater heat and a more thorough melt, Tang/Song dynasty teadust glazes transform into a dull black and dull brown colors. With still more heat they begin to show the rich, subtle and glossy glazes. For these more mature glaze qualities firing temps in the 1260 to 1300 ce range is needed . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babs Posted February 26, 2019 Report Share Posted February 26, 2019 So this is a genuine archeological piece..and you want to make it "better"? Hmm will this add to or take away fro.the piece..dont like it as it is. Sell it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted February 26, 2019 Report Share Posted February 26, 2019 I wouldn't touch it with a kiln. There's a chance it won't survive being refired, so why risk it? It's lasted a thousand years just fine as it is. If you want a shiny black version, sell that one and buy another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyK Posted February 26, 2019 Report Share Posted February 26, 2019 If it, in fact, a real Song Dynasty piece, you'd be nuts to do anything to it! Don't you watch Antiques Roadshow? That piece could be worth tens of thousands $$$. If you were to refire it, it could be worth about 10 cents. I agree with Neil and Babs here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgeingraham Posted February 26, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2019 Thank you all for the replies. Yes it is authentic. I wish to bring the glaze out to it's full potential. It is worth the risk, which in my humble opinion is minimal.. So I am still looking for someone who is willing to fire this for me.. Hopefully in a wood burning kiln, but a modern kiln will do the trick just fine.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babs Posted February 26, 2019 Report Share Posted February 26, 2019 Well of course if you own such a treasure you can do what the ....you want with it right???:_/// Hope whoever fires it for you has a good insurance cover. I wouldnt put such a piece in a kiln load of my stuff, it might blow apart and wreck my load Large Chinese community on westcoast. Perhaps contact it for advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denice Posted February 26, 2019 Report Share Posted February 26, 2019 Have you considered taking a pottery class for signing up for a seminar that involves doing a wood firing? Denice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hulk Posted February 26, 2019 Report Share Posted February 26, 2019 "It's lasted a thousand years just fine as it is. If you want a shiny black version, sell that one and buy another." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted February 26, 2019 Report Share Posted February 26, 2019 12 hours ago, georgeingraham said: Thank you all for the replies. Yes it is authentic. I wish to bring the glaze out to it's full potential. It is worth the risk, which in my humble opinion is minimal.. So I am still looking for someone who is willing to fire this for me.. Hopefully in a wood burning kiln, but a modern kiln will do the trick just fine.. The risk is not minimal at all. There is no guarantee that the glaze won't over-melt, or the pot itself won't melt or deform or crack, all of which could do damage to the kiln or other pieces, especially in a wood kiln where they tend to go to cone 12 or 14. A wood kiln will also get ash all over it, which will change the glaze, so you'd need to make a saggar for it. Refiring a piece that has been vitrified, even partially vitrified, runs the risk of cracking the clay. A glaze that has already been melted will behave differently in refire. There are dozens of variables at play here. I certainly wouldn't put it in any of my kilns. My feeling is that if the maker thought it needed to be refired, then he would have done it. As a potter/artist, I would be angry if someone decided they needed to 'fix' one of my pots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldlady Posted February 26, 2019 Report Share Posted February 26, 2019 george, why not just donate it to the Smithsonian institution in DC for their very good Freer Gallery of Asian Art museum? maybe someone else's opinion of its value as is would sway your thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callie Beller Diesel Posted February 26, 2019 Report Share Posted February 26, 2019 My question would be are there ethical and legal ramifications from altering a piece like this? Ai Weiwei comes to mind as perhaps an extreme example. How would refiring this item change its value as an antique or as an archeological piece? I wouldn't touch a project like this with someone else's hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graybeard Posted February 26, 2019 Report Share Posted February 26, 2019 PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Don't mess with it the fact that is so imperfect makes it more valuable, more rare, you have the one and ONLY one like it. I cant believe you could destroy this thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabby Posted February 27, 2019 Report Share Posted February 27, 2019 As you live in Washington State, I would make an appointment with the head of the Conservation Department at the Seattle Art Museum before you do anything rash. The Seattle Asian Art Museum collection may be the best Asian art collection outside of Japan, and the museum conservator is one of the best in the country. He has wide and deep experience with objects across the collection, both conserving them and attempting to reverse ill-conceived efforts to conserve ancient things. I have heard him speak several times and been in his conservation lab. I am sure he can give you good insight into what makes sense to do to take respectful care of this precious and irreplaceable object. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrick Posted March 2, 2019 Report Share Posted March 2, 2019 Please don’t even consider doing anything to this “authentic piece of historical pottery. Once you alter its original condition it’s devalued to almost nothing. As suggested , have it assessed and enjoy what you have . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted March 2, 2019 Report Share Posted March 2, 2019 Yes we could all talk you through the process but the bigger issue is we seem to ALL agree to leave it alone. I think the post above says its all (Please don’t even consider doing anything to this “authentic piece of historical pottery. Once you alter its original condition it’s devalued to almost nothing. As suggested , have it assessed and enjoy what you have . ) Its been hundrerds of years and thats the beauty of your piece._If you called me to fire it I would also say no. If you still want to do this take Gabbys addvice (As you live in Washington State, I would make an appointment with the head of the Conservation Department at the Seattle Art Museum before you do anything rash. The Seattle Asian Art Museum collection may be the best Asian art collection outside of Japan, and the museum conservator is one of the best in the country. He has wide and deep experience with objects across the collection, both conserving them and attempting to reverse ill-conceived efforts to conserve ancient things. I have heard him speak several times and been in his conservation lab. I am sure he can give you good insight into what makes sense to do to take respectful care of this precious and irreplaceable object) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1515art Posted March 6, 2019 Report Share Posted March 6, 2019 What are your travel limitations? Firing in China? I can’t say if anyone would be interested in your piece not personally knowing enough on those works but I have many friends and connections with experts across China and can ask the question and possibly get you valuable information on the various aspects of your decision should the piece be valuable enough to generate interest and if no one cares you are probably just fine doing with it as you wish. PM me if you want me to ask clark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1515art Posted March 6, 2019 Report Share Posted March 6, 2019 Also this site is very active with many experts in all Asian art and is open (slow response time) to all interested in Asian art no membership. https://www.asianart.com/phpforum/index.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgeingraham Posted March 6, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2019 2 hours ago, 1515art said: What are your travel limitations? Firing in China? I can’t say if anyone would be interested in your piece not personally knowing enough on those works but I have many friends and connections with experts across China and can ask the question and possibly get you valuable information on the various aspects of your decision should the piece be valuable enough to generate interest and if no one cares you are probably just fine doing with it as you wish. PM me if you want me to ask clark I will gratefully accept any help you or your friends can offer.. In my opinion the piece will not increase much in value even after melting the glaze and bringing it to its full potential luster. I would not place a value any greater than 300 to 400 dollars once the glaze is successfully fired. And I do not want to sell it, so would pay for return mailing.. I am familiar with the Asian Art forum. I will post there and see what the feedback is. I did post to Gotheborg, but no helpful response towards getting this fired. I am happy to mail this to China. I really do want to bring this glaze to fruition. There are traditional kilns still operating in China that would understand how to fire this, like those of Jingdezhen, and also Hebei province. But even if I could contact any of them directly, the language barrier is a problem. I will take you up on any help you can offer, and big thank you for your reply to this post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1515art Posted March 6, 2019 Report Share Posted March 6, 2019 george, can you tell us it’s history and How you can be certain of its authenticity and origin? Im also wondering why you believe it will have more than decorative value after refiring assuming it survives? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgeingraham Posted March 6, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2019 3 hours ago, 1515art said: george, can you tell us it’s history and How you can be certain of its authenticity and origin? Im also wondering why you believe it will have more than decorative value after refiring assuming it survives? These Northern China, Song Dynasty funerary jars are quite common.. All share the same three clawed dragons chasing the flaming pearl theme, combined with the 12 celestial beings. Not to mention the very noticeable buff red clay also common to these black wares. Also, the glaze was applied by "dipping" the piece in a glaze slurry, again a trademark common for these wares. It will have more decorative value because the glaze will be fired properly resulting in it matching other brown/black ware Northern and Southern Song Dynasty pieces from the period. I would like the glaze to have it's meant to be, lustrous glossy finish, like these other Song Dynasty examples attached. Most all of these funerary jars are a Qingbai ( Ding ware ) Ware type glaze . It is a bit rare to find one in black. https://www.facebook.com/groups/903467689720550/permalink/2157065121027461/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1515art Posted March 6, 2019 Report Share Posted March 6, 2019 George, thank you for the information interesting piece, I was more focused in it’s recent history how you came to own it and I’m guessing it’s been to a few experts or evaluations? You have knowledge of it and knowing some of that history will help, I’d imagine there are concerns beyond damage to just the kiln, any work being fired within the near proximity to your jar should it react unexpectedly would be in jeopardy. Another issue to consider, many copies are produced and have been for a very long time as I’m sure you are aware and it’s important to be certain of the materials used in the process of making it and their temperature range. It could be fired in it’s own sagger even then I think you are going to invest many times it’s retail decorative value in the process. Shipping will be expensive to and from China and you need to be aware of customs restrictions on antiquities some things going in can’t come back out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcia Selsor Posted March 6, 2019 Report Share Posted March 6, 2019 When NCECA was in Seattle there was a show of the 10 wood kilns of the area. I think , if you must fire it, you should contact one of the owners of these kilns. Marcia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.