Wet clay, wheel wedging, and other miscellanea

[Pyewackette]

So after the huge disappointment of having to literally give away a $6500 brand new kiln I'd been waiting for for 40 years, and a round of multiple root canals due to a broken filling and two broken crowns, I'm finally back in the (shared public) studio.

Some of you may remember that studio is under new management which brought along with it a change in the quality of the clay.  Well its been at least a year now and I'm pretty sure the clay is as it is going to be by now.  The stoneware is now extremely wet and soft - there does not appear to be any interest on the part of management to rectify that.  And they've stopped pugging and de-airing the B-mix altogether.  That means that has to be wedged before you can use it.  Which is (obviously) fine for the strong healthy young man now running the studio, but not so great for a broken down old lady with 2 bad shoulders, a bad elbow, and a bad back.  (I'm working on the back but there's not much to be done about shoulders ripped up due to hauling my 185lb father up the stairs to the house we rented because the landlord wouldn't let me build a ramp).

I struggle with the stoneware.  Turns out I can use the B-mix more easily than the stoneware, but then I have to wedge it.  I messed up my shoulders again this past summer trying to work with that stash of red clay I got from the studio, but I have to give it a try.

I can't stand at a wedging table long enough to actually wedge to completion so I've been partially wedging and then finishing on the wheel (cone UP, cone Down, x3).  It hasn't been trouble free yet but I've only given it one day so far.  I had some trouble stack 'n slamming because there isn't an installed cutting wire and I was cutting horizontally instead of perpendicular to the table but now that I realize what I was doing wrong (ended up with flat rectangles instead of a squarish block I could easily turn into cones ready for the wheel) I think I can "fix" that enough so that I don't end up re-introducing air when I shape it for the wheel.  I'll be going in a little later today to see how it goes.

I've switched to the B-mix because the stoneware has been frustratingly difficult for me.  I can't get the walls up evenly and end up with a lot of collapsed/twisted stuff.  Weirdly, because I always thought B-mix was closer to porcelain, I have a much easier time with it.  Its firmer and easier for me to work with, but it also absorbs water like a sponge.  I'm a pretty dry thrower but it drinks water.

I'm thinking that if I scrape the surface each time I cone up then down I would be introducing less water into the clay (I go up and down 3 times to wheel wedge) so I have a little more time to work it.  The stuff I've turned out does look a LOT better than what I could manage with the very wet stoneware, but I don't feel like I have enough control yet.  Should I be treating this more like porcelain and scrape it more often? 

Any tips would be most appreciated.

[LeeU]

10 hours ago, Pyewackette said:

after the huge disappointment of having to literally give away a $6500 brand new kiln

?????????? what happened?

[Hulk]

Hi Py,

Hope you are progressing to a happy place with clay.
I'd seen your post earlier today, wanted to share some thoughts, however, we were very busy with the moving vans and such, finally settled for the day with kind family members who are putting us up for a few days whilst we finish cleaning the (now empty) house before driving the cars to our new town*...

I didn't mind working with bmix**, but went away from it on account of glaze fit issues, severe crazing.
I was having some good results with buff and red clays.
Later on I found two white stonewares that my glazes fit.

Thought I
I prefer having the clay be a bit damp, then by the time I've weighed out my clay balls and wedged them up, if it's not dried to the consistency I want, I'll just wedge it a bit more - going to the plaster slab if necessary. Yeah, I prefer that over cutting slices, misting them, wedging them together, etc. until a too dry clay is wet/soft enough for me.
The plaster slab pulls moisture fast.
So, maybe give the too wet stoneware another chance?
Seems like there's a tradeoff, where dryer clay gives a longer working window until it is too wet, however, it takes longer to move it around, and it shears more easily.
With damper clay, it moves easier, but one has to work faster, for it gets too wet more quickly.

Thought II
The clay right next to the wheel head doesn't move much - doesn't move at all.
Coning gets the clay swirled ok, but if there's a blob, bit, bubble, too dry or too wet bit right on the wheel head - trouble.
I don't have much luck with coning removing bubbles. Getting the bubbles forced into the middle does help, but better if no bubbles.
All that to say, I've a much better time with really well-prepared clay - even consistency, no bubbles.

On preparing clay, several points:

I prefer to stand, so I can lean into it, but sometimes I've some pains and twinges, so I wedge sitting down.
Not sure if that could work for you?
Having the surface at the right height is for sure important, either way.

Prepping is nice when there's no hurry - back to the too damp clay, eh? - nice and easy, work it until it is ready, small lumps are easier.

When the lumps are ready, I stack them up in a lidded container, for I don't want the surface to dry, because then it's no longer consistent!

There are those who take the clay right out of the bag and work it with no prep!
I do believe it's possible, yep, with a freshly opened bag that's consistent and bubble free.
My guess is there are limited or even no options for clay sources where you are.
I hope there are, so you can just sit down and throw.

I'd prep you up a stack of clay lumps and smile doing it!
During my two semesters of Wheel class at the local JC, I prepared clay balls for several of my classmates.
I liked being helpful, and I was also curious to see if well prepared clay made any difference; my observation, it makes a difference!
Perhaps you'll find someone who can help.
 

*We're moving back to an area we lived in afore.

**It's different! ...not my favorite, but it's ok. The kind with a fine particle, sand or somewhat, I like better.

 

[Pyewackette]

7 hours ago, LeeU said:

?????????? what happened?

Well several things, sort of more or less simultaneously.  This is probably TMI, but here goes.

Around the time Tejas went totally off the deep end with the removal of reproductive rights and on-going threats to access to birth control, my son and DIL discovered that the much-vaunted (by people who live here) "excellence" of public schools is more like excrement.  BTW, after he discovered how bad the "program" is here, people started admitting to how bad schools are in general around here, which is not the song they'd been singing. Anyway.

My grandson is neuro-atypical - not the full on rainman thing, just atypical. Nonetheless he needs a supportive environment until his outward development catches up to his inward development.  He's been in a VERY good and supportive program but he is going to age out next school year.  Not sure why, but public schools here want 4 year olds in their program - preK.  And their program for neuro-atypical kids is le suckage.  Which my son and DIL didn't find out until they went to some kind of meeting to prepare for the switch.

So between threats to my DIL's health (she had a problematic pregnancy and is in her late 30s) and imminent threats to my grandson's development, we're moving OUT of Texhell. Not to mention the whole racism situation.

Because of all this my son quit his tenured teaching position which he loved to get a remote job with a large tech firm (just started a couple of weeks ago) so he could move wherever in the country he felt he could get decent services for my grandson, and where my DILs life won't be endangered by restrictions on her access to necessary health care. Before all this stuff blew up in our faces, my son was SURE we would live here FOREVER. So he assured me I should go ahead and buy the kiln and then - KABLOOEY. 

It seemed silly to spend a ton of money to make the electrical changes to a house I wasn't going to be in that much longer, and then not be able to move the kiln, it was apparently too late to stop the kiln being completed and shipped, my son didn't want to mess with moving it, I was getting advice not to TRY to move it (from Tejas to somewhere around Albany) - it turned into a huge hassle and finally it ended up at the local studio - where it has not even been hooked up yet and likely won't be for a significant length of time (they have electrical issues apparently courtesy of the former studio manager dating back to the opening of the studio - shortcuts taken that shouldn't have been taken). 

So it all seems sort of a waste.  And depressing.  Took me awhile to "get over it", not helped by an onslaught of dental issues all at once, 3 root canals, and a history of me having a lot of dental work in the past (40 years, including 2 wisdom tooth extractions) with little or no anesthesia because my nerves are in a weird place and dentists act like Torquemada when you tell them you're not numb. Lots of stress on top of the physical aspects, and a worsening of my Addison's disease consequential to all the stress.  So I'm just now back in the studio.

Sorry.  I don't know how to be concise any more.  *sigh*

Edited February 16, 2023 by Pyewackette

[Pyewackette]

@Hulk So you are already undergoing what we are still anticipating.

Boy do I hate moving!

The thing about the wet stoneware is it is REALLY wet.  I've seen people roll it into an arch and leave it to sit to dry out a bit and its still not that much improved by the end of class (3 hours).  It is SOPPING.  I've never seen such wet stoneware.  It is MUCH MUCH worse to work with than what I remember of the one time I worked with actual porcelain. However other people seem to be managing, more or less.  For me, it thins out too fast in spots and not enough in others - when trying to raise it.  This doesn't happen much with the B-mix.  It nearly always happens with the stoneware, and right quickly.  I can't seem to work it easily or evenly and I have to work it FAST before it collapses on me, so I don't have time to finesse it at all.

Plus it is pugged and de-aired and if I have to re-wedge it anyway, might as well put all that physical labor into wedging the B-mix, which I have found to be much preferable to working with the current version of the stoneware.  That said, I'm not sure I've been successful with my strategy for wedging the B-mix without really wedging it and I'm not physically capable of wedging it in any great amount on my own.  I REALLY wish I'd bought the Pete Pugger first - I could move that and I'd have it to use in the meantime.  Oh well.

So yesterday I had one of my psuedo-wedged blobs actually keep twisting off while I was trying to cone it up.  THREE times (same blob). So I'm not sure what I did wrong there.  

I've also noticed that there are weird lumpy feelings as I work the stuff, not always, but sometimes, and from the same batch that I just sorta wedged. So not all the clay from a given wedge-batch.  I'm wondering how much of my stuff is going to blow up in the kiln.

I stack 'n slam until I don't see bubbles when I wire cut it.  The problem seems to be when I try to form it into a cone-blob for the wheel.  I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong and youtube is no help because people "demonstrating" that, sort of do it blocked by other things and really fast so it looks like it magically forms up for them.

As usual for me, bowls come easily.  But I keep forcing myself to think "cylinders".  Or else how will I ever learn ...

[High Bridge Pottery]

Would they let you bring your own stoneware clay to the studio? 

[Pyewackette]

@High Bridge Pottery Sure, but the only place to buy clay within a 5 hour drive IS this studio, LOL!

[Callie Beller Diesel]

@Pyewacketteit sounds like you've been going through a lot. Hopefully we can help you find a resting spot with your clay work. 

It’s been a while since I’ve worked with B mix, but I recall it being very thixotropic. Although water is a factor, some of the softness and tendency to flop comes from movement and kinetic energy transfer, such as any form of wedging, including cut/slam. 

I had better luck with b mix when I wedged it up the day before I planned to throw it, If you do your clay prep a day or so ahead it’s got time to settle out a bit, It’ll re-soften quickly as soon as you smack it down on the wheel. Bonus, you can just come in and start working as soon as your water bucket is full. I also found throwing with a metal or wooden rib helpful: it scrapes the water and the slurry off the surface, again buying you more working time.

I’ve found that cut/slam reduces the amount of wedging you have to do by a lot, but you still need to polish it off with a little bit of spiral. As few as 10-20 pushes should do it if all the bubbles are out and everything is the same consistency.

Re coning: most of it is applying pressure in the right place, and it’s about leverage, not strength. Most videos do emphasize anchoring your elbow into your torso/hip, but it’s also important to brace your feet for maximum stability. 

I really, really like the first half of this video from Florian Gadsby for centring and coning. The centering info is handy, but coning specifically begins at 4:25 with relevant bits up until about 7:30. He’s got multiple unimpeded camera angles, and shows how to use less water. He’s also got good descriptions of where he’s applying pressure at what point. 

Pro tip for the “neurospicy” amongst us: the little gear at the bottom of the YouTube screen has a dropdown that allows you to adjust the playback speed. As an ADHD’er, I can’t take in video tutorials unless they’re sped up, but in this case, you could slow the video down to 1/4 speed to really take in details.

 

[Pyewackette]

@Callie Beller Diesel Turns out I've been watching that video this past week but mostly this one about pulling up the walls.  Centering the wet ball I've got pretty well down.  Coning, not too bad.  Where I'm failing most often is to keep the work centered over the base.  I'll be going along fine and then all of a sudden the cylinder isn't centered any more but the base still is.  I've seen people "fix" that but so far I (a) don't know how to avoid it because I don't know what I did to cause it and (b) don't know how to fix it once I've done it. 

I'm also still working on pulling up the walls in general.  I have to fight the urge to just make everything a bowl.  I have to consciously think "cylinder NOT bowl" as I'm pulling or it comes out away from the center and wants to be a bowl.  I like Florian Gadsby's video on this because I think his method of pulling up towards center would help me to overcome my overwhelming subconscious effort to turn everything into a bowl.  I have yet to succeed in pulling a wall straight up let alone in towards the center like that.

But I keep on trying ...

I must admit to turning the speed up on most videos to 2x, 1.5 if they talk fast enough that I can't understand at double speed. Most people just taaaaaalk soooo sloooooow on those things.  I'm a speed reader.  I apparently need to be a speed listener as well.

I have turned it down to .25x to try to see things better, but then I have to turn off the sound.  Just toooo weird with the sound on.  It doesn't usually help that much but .... I keep on trying.  LOL!

Day before yesterday I wedged up about 13 lbs of the B mix.  This is, btw, a "special" b mix that isn't supposed to have the problems with glazes that other B mixes seem to have.  Anyway.  I've still got about half of that left.  Didn't go in today to work (just to check my bagged stuff) because its yoga day for me.  Trying not to overdo it.  But tomorrow I'll have 2 day old wedged B mix.  We'll see how that goes.

[Babs]

What weight are you throwing?

Make up your balls of clay, slap onto wheel and centre without coning up and down.

Did a lot of years of pottery without coning well prepared clay.

If using straight out of bag,drop the bag a few times, ( @oldlady tip), get that young person to pick it up for you, then open, slice in cubes, ball  up and throw.

I'm guessing you can't leave to rest overnight before throwing.

Use metal ribs to shape after opening and raising the clay.

Worth a try. 

[High Bridge Pottery]

I thought you had already moved but from reading a bit more it seems you are still waiting to move? Hopefully your new location will have a better studio.

 

I wonder if there's problems with the pug mill which is why they mix it up wet. Seems like others are finding it too wet if they are making arches and trying to dry it out. I wish there was a better answer than leaving it out to dry and wedging it. I did wonder if you could dry it enough and get them to send it back through the pug mill. Do they make the clay from scratch or does it arrive this wet from the suppliers or it it when they recycle the clay?

[Pyewackette]

1 hour ago, High Bridge Pottery said:

I thought you had already moved but from reading a bit more it seems you are still waiting to move? Hopefully your new location will have a better studio.

Yeah a few months to go yet.  They have identified some places where the programs for my grandson appear to be most likely to be helpful, have a realtor, and got pre-approved for house loans. They are now seriously looking for a house but they expect to run out my grandson's time here in the Good Program, so moving probably in June/very early July, maybe into August. One thing - I'll be about an hour from Bailey.  So no worries about finding clay in the area LOL!  Bailey is still keeping Covid hours - eg by appointment only - but I'm pretty sure I can "make an appointment" to pick up clay at least, even if you don't get to wander through the store any more.

I will be setting up my OWN studio there whenever we get there but that may take a year or even more.  The sands in my hour glass are getting pretty low but I keep on tryin' ...  I was sooo close this time ... 

1 hour ago, High Bridge Pottery said:

I wonder if there's problems with the pug mill which is why they mix it up wet. Seems like others are finding it too wet if they are making arches and trying to dry it out. I wish there was a better answer than leaving it out to dry and wedging it. I did wonder if you could dry it enough and get them to send it back through the pug mill. Do they make the clay from scratch or does it arrive this wet from the suppliers or it it when they recycle the clay?

The New Guy is something of a purist, in that he thinks everybody should be wedging everything, and devil take the hindmost.  The Old Guard had a different attitude, in that they thought people should be spending their limited studio time actually throwing. They used to always have pugged and de-aired B-Mix, white stoneware, and sometimes red low fire.  Now its just the stoneware.

So yes - they make it from scratch.  And no - they won't put it back through the pug mill.  This is apparently the way the new guy wants it.  There is a new person (a student from the local college) running the mixer and the pugmill. So that was a learning curve. The new guy changed the supplier and I'm not sure why given the old supplier charged us a fraction of the shipping that the new supplier charges. Maybe something partly Covid related, I don't know. Some ingredients have changed. I'm sure the "recipe" has changed because of that.  I KNOW the quality has changed. I'm pretty sure part of the issue with unpugged B-mix is not wanting to clean the pugmill out between clays. I don't know why they've settled on the stoneware as it is.  I believe they may be trying to do away with studio B-mix altogether, but I'm just guessing.

Since the de facto manager is gone they now have to actually pay somebody for ALL the hours. The de facto manager used to do whatever it took to keep things running smoothly. I don't think they appreciated how much he actually did for free when they passed him over.  I miss that guy A LOT. Not only was he a great teacher (not to diss the new guy AT ALL in that regard), but he is the only one there who ever took this over-60 broken down old woman seriously. He took seriously my desire to develop some actual skills so I can actualize whatever artistic sensibilities are still left to me. The rest treat me like an over-60 broken down old woman with delusions.  The new guy came in the other day while I was working with the B-mix for the first time, looked at a cup I'd just thrown, and said "Is THAT the FIRST cup you threw with the B-mix???" 

He clearly thought I wouldn't be able to work with the B-mix given people think its so much harder to work with than stoneware.  Well not THIS stoneware, and not for me. I have SO much trouble with the stoneware, everything I've done lately has been so much work for so little reward. He looked like he'd just walked in on his cat laying an egg.  And it wasn't even all that great.  Their expectations of me are so low it hurts.

Anyway, after the changing of the guard, and not having somebody around any more to do all the (largely unpaid) work of keeping things running behind the background, for months - nearly a year - there was NO B-mix at all, let alone pugged and de-aired.  Now there are only 2 boxes of B-Mix and it comes straight out of the mixer.  Its been so long since I HAD to wedge anything (about 12 years, I've had huge gaps between stints of having access to a studio) that I don't remember how to do the thing where you make it into a vaguely cone shaped thing you can slap on the wheel. I seem to be reintroducing air when I try.

Wire wedging is easy (well easiER) - that's the way I was taught to wedge nearly 50 years ago.  All this ram's head and spiral stuff first came into my view when I was working at a studio in NC ca 2010ish. I never fully developed the ability to do those. Now my shoulders are shot (though the yoga is hopefully going to help strengthen my lower back). So its both unfamiliar and physically difficult. I'm also stupid short so the wedging table is high for me. Wire wedging would be a lot easier if there were a vertical cutting wire installed but I have to lay mine out on the table and its much slower.  I wire wedge to no bubbles but not the 30x Michael Wendt does it.  Then I apparently mess it up again trying to form the cones for slapping on the wheel.

I really wish I'd bought the pugmill first instead of the kiln.  Oh well.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Pyewackette

[Pyewackette]

4 hours ago, Babs said:

What weight are you throwing?

2, 2.5 lbs I think.  I had 13 lbs of the B-mix that I wedged and ended up with about 6 balls.  I have 3 left that will be 2 days wedged when I go in today.

4 hours ago, Babs said:

Make up your balls of clay, slap onto wheel and centre without coning up and down.

Did a lot of years of pottery without coning well prepared clay.

If using straight out of bag,drop the bag a few times, ( @oldlady tip), get that young person to pick it up for you, then open, slice in cubes, ball  up and throw.

Its mixed at the studio, not bagged.  The stoneware gets pugged and de-aired, the B-mix comes straight out of the mixer.

4 hours ago, Babs said:

I'm guessing you can't leave to rest overnight before throwing.

Well I COULD, but if I mess my shoulders up it takes more than a day to recover.  I think I can handle 12 or 15 lbs wedged at once - I felt it when I did 13 lbs but then I sat down at the wheel and worked at least another 4 hours without appearing to do long term damage.  I'll have to take my own advice and wedge a little bit every time I go in, then set that clay aside to work another day.  If I can keep 5 or 6 balls ready to work all the time maybe I can manage.  So today I'll wedge up another 12 lbs or so and set it aside for Sunday and just work the 3 balls that are ready for me.  Maybe I can spend a little time trying to manage the stoneware after that.  I need to learn to work the clay even if its sloppy, I guess.

4 hours ago, Babs said:

Use metal ribs to shape after opening and raising the clay.

Worth a try. 

Thanks.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Pyewackette

[High Bridge Pottery]

50 minutes ago, Pyewackette said:

I really wish I'd bought the pugmill first instead of the kiln.  Oh well.

Is there no way to get any money for your kiln? Even if you managed to get 50% that seems like enough for a small pug mill.

 

Such a shame that they are putting up barriers for you instead of trying to help. In the end we are all trying to get to the fired ceramics and whatever way that is done doesn't really matter.

I found wedging to be a bit of a showoff game with some people "oh look how much I can wedge at once to get rid of bubbles" I can understand that he likes the consistency one way but why force that onto everybody? The only other idea I have is adding some grog into the clay, that should give it more working strength.

 

[oldlady]

great news that you will be close to bailey.   maybe you can then change your location below your avatar to a real place.

to learn to throw a cylinder by pulling toward the center, think you are making a flower pot upside down.   always complete every pull without changing the pressure.  do not lift your hand until you reach the very top of the clay and then hold a finger down on top for at least a few revolutions.  your hands are made of steel, rigid, not floppy.

unless you are not opening at the very center, pulling walls toward the center should become easier with practice.   remember, you are learning a skill, not producing work.

if you smack down  and stretch the wet clay onto a piece of 5/8 drywall, you might dry it out enough to use the same day.  

[Babs]

7 hours ago, oldlady said:

great news that you will be close to bailey.   maybe you can then change your location below your avatar to a real place.

to learn to throw a cylinder by pulling toward the center, think you are making a flower pot upside down.   always complete every pull without changing the pressure.  do not lift your hand until you reach the very top of the clay and then hold a finger down on top for at least a few revolutions.  your hands are made of steel, rigid, not floppy.

unless you are not opening at the very center, pulling walls toward the center should become easier with practice.   remember, you are learning a skill, not producing work.

if you smack down  and stretch the wet clay onto a piece of 5/8 drywall, you might dry it out enough to use the same day.  

Great idea @oldlady I find the drying aspect of drywall keeps me working faster!!!! Some days I revert to my canvas board , under the pump with drywall.

S0, @Pyewackette, get a square of drywall and take it to class. Slap a slab of your wet clay onto it, turn and slap afew times , go sort yourself for a throwing session , quick wedge and you'll extend the lower jaw muscles of new lad.

Consolation: he doesn't know it is only a matter of time, ...the last refuge of the aged!

[Pyewackette]

ITS A MIRACLE!  I went in this past Monday and the new clay was suddenly firmer than its been in over a year.  I couldn't believe it.  I asked about it and yes, I wasn't imagining it, this latest batch was firmer on purpose.  I'm told the hand builders like it soft and smooshy (I certainly don't when I'm hand building so I guess I'm the weirdo yet again).  I have been trying to make hay while the sun shines, because the next batch might be soft and smooshy again.  Apparently hand builders rate over wheel throwers LOL!  It was soooo much better to throw with, and I didn't have to wedge it at all!

My cell phone camera stand is supposed to be here today or tomorrow so I can take pictures of myself mangling cylinders and what not.  I've been trying to emulate Florian Gadsby and his technique of pulling walls up into a cone - so far I have not succeeded in pulling it inward like that, but at least they are now going up more or less straight LOL! Before my hands just kept trying to turn everything into a bowl right off the bat.  I have hope that I will eventually go from merely avoiding pulling the walls OUT to actually being able to guide them inward with that first pull like he does.  Its already helping to overcome my auto-bowl handicap. 

I struggle still with getting the body off center of the base.  I can feel it now when it happens but I still can't necessarily fix it.  I managed to fix or avoid doing that for one whole day - then the next day, back to knocking the body off center of the base again.  It makes for some very funny looking vases LOL!

I can feel when things go wrong now.  I can't always tell HOW it goes wrong, but I can feel it once its gone wrong and I can mostly identify the type of wrongness.  I think I've got enough stuff for practice glazing (depending on whether or not anything blows up in the kiln) - so I'll be going back to just pulling cylinders until they collapse.  At the moment I am no good at pulling up thin walls.  My hands/fingers move up the wall and it pulls up a little bit but I still end up with thick walls by the time the clay has been overworked.  But I keep on trying!

[Pres]

@Pyewackette, is it possible you are not centering in the bottom outside of your clay when centering, leaving a small area where the clay causes your hand to rise unevenly on your centering and pulling. Use and upside down thumbnail to scrape the clay on the wheel head into the clay you are centering? I center with a slight cup to my hands at the base opposite the thumb, this forces the clay to move into the ball being centered.

Hope you can understand my description.

 

best,

Pres

[Pyewackette]

@Pres I don't THINK so but what do I know.  What I FEEL happening (in my hands) is that I knock the walls off center of the base.  The base (I am pretty sure) is centered, but in trying to raise the walls I'm knocking the body off center.  It may be happening when I open it too.  I end up with a skewed form where the top of the pot is not centered over the base.  It makes for some interesting attempts to center for trimming.  Should I center the top, or the base?  Both choices seem bad, once things have gone sideways.

I get the lump centered pretty quick these days and it looks centered and feels centered but opening is awkward.  I'm not sure if my inability to tell my left from my right is involved too.  I throw backwards - wheel spins clockwise.  But I center with my left hand which is apparently not the way most people center when the wheel is going clockwise.  I then switch hit for almost everything else that goes on.  I've been restricting the wall raising to my right hand on the outside and my left hand on the inside at about 5 o'clock. 

When I open, I used to always use both thumbs but I was having a lot of trouble where the opening was not centered.  I've been trying to emulate the instructor of this latest class - he sticks an index finger down the center and then pulls out with his 2 middle fingers - not the pinky and not the index.  My fingers are not strong enough to do that.  I am using my left hand to open, try to hold my right palm to keep the blob from pulling out of center while opening, but eventually I have to use my right index and middle finger laid over my left to get it to open.  It feels awkward.  I'm probably NOT doing it right.  Hope I described that properly.  Its tough to tell people what you are doing when you can't tell your left from your right but you have to figure it out after the fact trying to describe it LOL!

I feel things start to wobble when I'm pulling up.  Sometimes I think that wobble started during the opening phase, but sometimes it seems like I got that part right but still get a wobble in the walls eventually.

[Pres]

I hate to say it, @Pyewackette, but by doing everything with the asian wheel direction, is difficult for me to help you with, Are you right or left handed? However. . . . When centering you brace on your right hip? Then you pull with your left to get the clay into the right braced hand. Opening up you are using the left hand to open with the thumb but now changing to the index finger. . . but it is too weak. . . .try the two middle fingers.   When pulling, you should have a donut attached the the wheel, use your sponge in your left had to push on the roll of the donut while your fingers of the rt hand on the inside squeeze against the rt hand thumb on the outside below the donut, this should complete the first pull. It is essential that the motion of the hands going up is slightly inward making a truncated cylinder, On you next pull the outside rt hand should start right at the base creating a new roll, the inside hand is at the base of the cylinder pushing very slightly outward less pressure than the inside hand. As you feel the roll rise, rise with it slowly bracing arms against shallow breathing body.  . . The rest is practice.

 

best,

Pres

[Pyewackette]

@Pres

TLDR: I THINK it may be helpful for me to remember to work from the LEADING edge - does that sound right?  Instead of constantly trying to figure out where's left and where's right.

For me the "leading" edge is coming from 3 o'clock to 6 o'clock.  For "normal" throwers it is coming towards them from 9 o'clock to 6 o'clock - does that sound right - err, correct? Work on the leading edge with the outside hand being the dominant hand (the hand that you keep on the OUTSIDE of the work as well as the hand that is to the OUTSIDE of the wheel, the other hand being more centerish) - that would be the left hand for counterclockwise "normal" throwers, correct?  But for me the outside hand would be the right hand. Does that make sense?

I'm going to address part of your advice with some excruciatingly detailed descriptions of which hand I'm using for what.  I don't know how else to describe what I'm doing in the absence of actual video.  If the above is on target you may not even have to wade through my wordiness though.

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I hate to say it, @Pyewackette, but by doing everything with the asian wheel direction, is difficult for me to help you with, Are you right or left handed?

No.  I'm sorta ambidextrous, except not really.  Some things I am right hand dominant - writing for example. Up to the 3rd grade I wrote either left or right handed.  Then my (ick) 3rd grade teacher forced me to write right handed or she'd slap me with a ruler, because "writing right handed is right". She made me hold my pencil a particular (wrong) way that actually caused an outgrowth of the bone on my right middle finger.  That was 57 years ago and I still feel for that bump when I'm trying to figure out my left from my right. That finger is also not straight because of that, it leans to the right starting from the first joint.  Thank you, mean old blue haired lady, for causing me a permanent and unnecessary deformation, LOL!   Anyway.

I throw darts, use a bow and arrow (back when I did archery), and a few other things left handed.  I cut with a knife right handed.  I bowl right handed.  My mother forced me to take tennis lessons for 12 years running and I was terrible at it - possibly would have done better if she would have let me do it left handed.

I know, its weird and a pain.  SORRY!  I can't seem to change it at my advanced age, and I can't tell my left from my right without first taking a moment's thought either.  At least I don't drive backwards LOL!

I ended up throwing backwards because the first class I took we had Shimpo wheels.  I switched it to "FORWARD" and threw that way because nobody told me that was actually REVERSE, American style.  The teacher just thought I was left handed.  I've since tried to change it and have thus far failed, even after a 10 year absence from the wheel.  Possibly this is just another thing that I'd best be doing left handed.

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However. . . . When centering you brace on your right hip? Then you pull with your left to get the clay into the right braced hand.

No, I use my Left hand braced on my left hip.  The right hand is my "auxilliary" when I'm centering, what you refer to as the pulling hand. That is the same as a counterclockwise thrower, thus "backwards" for me as a clockwise thrower, correct? That means I'm centering on the "leaving" edge of the blob instead of on the "leading" edge, if that makes any sense.  I've tried to switch but it doesn't work as well.  If it really matters I guess I would have to spend some time trying to forcibly switch.  I get it centered ok this way but maybe its causing some problem down the line? Perhaps persistence in this matter would be called for?

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Opening up you are using the left hand to open with the thumb but now changing to the index finger. . . but it is too weak. . . .try the two middle fingers.

When I'm pulling open I tend to switch hit but I've been trying to change to always using the same hand.  The problem is that I keep forgetting which hand that ought to be. I think that ought to be worked from the leading edge of the blob as it turns, so that I should be working at 3 to 6 o'clock with my right hand being the dominant (outside) hand.  I mostly manage to do that as long as I am paying attention.  The blob comes towards me from the 3 o'clock position to the 6 o'clock position and my right hand is the dominant hand, that's what I'm trying to describe.  For everybody else it would be coming at them from the 9 o'clock to 6 o'clock position and the left hand is the dominant hand. Where dominant hand stays on the OUTSIDE of the form.

For opening, the instructor takes his index finger alone and jams it straight down into the center of the blob.  Then he uses the middle two fingers to pull open.  Not the pinky or the index finger. He makes a hole straight down and then pulls the V, then he opens the V out to the walls. I've never seen anybody do it this way, they go right to the V whatever fingers or thumbs they are using.  I find it very awkward to try to imitate this. I used to get an obvious wobble with my 2 thumbs method but possibly I'm getting a very slight unnoticeable-to-me wobble trying to do it his way - I may start at the middle with the index finger jab, but maybe it drifts slightly off center as I try to jam that finger straight down like he does and I just don't notice the wrongness.

I think I will try to go back to the thumbs for opening up to the V, but I'll do it the way she does it in this video (only with opposite handage):

My 2 thumbs method involved both thumbs touching the clay, that is 2 points of contact with the clay.  I'm pretty sure uneven pressure is what caused the opening to not be centered.  But her way involves only one thumb in contact with the clay.  One point of contact, even pressure, less chance of an uncentered opening.  So I'll try that and see how it works for me.

Maybe somebody knows where there's a left handed thrower on Youtube?  I don't think I've ever found one.  When you can't tell your left from your right, its tough enough to get this right - er, CORRECT - but its worse when all your examples throw the opposite way from you, LOL! I can barely tell MY left from my right, let alone someone else.  

OK this is really long so I'll quit here for now and address the rest of your advice AFTER I come back from the studio today and I've had a chance to put some of this into action.  Hopefully the leading edge - outside hand as dominant concept will help - assuming that's even correct to start with. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Pyewackette

[Hulk]

I'm mostly right handed*.

I throw clockwise, period**.

I'd tried centering and coning with main pressure on the "away" side (left hand), am sticking with the "toward" side, right hand.
The clay is moving into the force hand, seems easier to control, more effective - for me.
Looks like the more popular approach, from what I've seen.

...am not recalling seeing a thrower work on the toward side for pulling.
I work with the right hand inside, left hand outside, on the away side, seven to nine o'clock or so.

Have learned much watching this one over the last few years (a clockwise example):
Tokoname Master Craftsman - Hokujo (Genji Shimizu)　伝統工芸士　清水源二 - YouTube

Most often, my opening move is both thumbs, where the right thumb tip covers the bottom half of the left thumbnail.
The right thumb does touch and spread the opening, but the left thumb is at the point.
Both thumbnails are protected - the nails wear away too fast and don't grow back fast enough to be of much use, hence, each throwing move/grip involves protecting the nails...

*right eyed, throw right, kick right, bow/slingshot/pistol/rifle all right, bowl right, bat right.

However, I skateboard/surfboard right foot forward, pull wrenches for torque left (and most other "power" things left), and breathe left (swimming).

 

**no contest, it's correct for me.
Perhaps due to minor nerve damage, both hands; the way my eyes work; the slight twist of my torso due to years of breathing left (swimming); idk, I really don't.
I've tried counterclockwise, it's ok, but I prefer clockwise, by a long chalk.

[Callie Beller Diesel]

Interestingly enough, the hand positioning you describe is almost identical to the way I do it, but my wheel turns counterclockwise. I open differently though. I have a relative who thinks I should have been left handed too, but I don’t remember anyone trying to make me switch. Lots of neurodiverse folks can be fully or partially ambidextrous and/or have poor proprioreception (perception of your body in space). It runs in my family, so we have some sense of how to navigate that.

I’m going to keep my descriptions to inside hand and outside hand in the sense you’ve already described, because I think that’s a good method. My outside hand is my dominant hand (right), and my inside is my left hand. People can fill in what applies to them. 

I use a 3 middle finger method to open. I use my left/inside hand anchored into my left hip to centre, same as you. My inside hand is set against the wheelhead, or just a hair above, to centre. The outside hand  is braced on top of the inside doing that karate chop pose to create the flat spot, as in the most recently posted video. Keeping the inside hand in place, I then use the middle finger of my outside hand to run slowly from the outside edge inwards until I find the exact middle spot.  It’s quite noticeable, and taking an extra breath to find it lets you open in the right place.  I then stack my pointer and ring fingers on top of that middle finger and press down to create that v shape, staying well braced the whole time. If needed, you can switch your braced elbow to your outside hand side, and use your inside hand fingers to add more downward pressure. To scale this move to larger amounts of clay (>5lbs) you can use the side of your fist instead of fingertips, but the bracing stays the same.  

To create the flat base, rather than pulling to the side like with the 1 or 2 thumb methods, lock your joints on all 3 fingers and pull that well braced outside hand straight towards yourself at the 6 o’clock position. If necessary, steady that wrist with the inside hand by grasping it from above. The person who taught me to do this had some background in kinesiology, and said that this was a more joint friendly method, and incorporates body weight movements rather than brute strength. 

-That same person advised keeping your hands in contact with each other on the clay, unless physically not possible. It offers a lot more support and stability. Play with what works.

Other thoughts about getting a cylinder vs a bowl:

-make sure you start your pull only after you’ve allowed a full revolution of the wheel with your fingers at the base. Make sure you’ve made a full donut to pull up, not a spiral. When you get to the top of the cylinder, allow at least a full revolution before you take your fingers away.

-the direction your form moves in will be in the direction the last point of contact pushed it towards. If you want your piece’s rim to move inwards, stagger your finger position slightly. When pulling, place the fingertips of your outside hand just below the fingertips of your inside hand so your outside hand can push in to correct any hint of flaring caused by your inside hand.  That should get you your volcano. If you want the piece to flare on purpose, inside fingertips should be at or below outside fingertips, mostly just supporting it so things don’t happen too fast.

 

 

 

[Pyewackette]

I got pictures!  But they're messed up and I hit submit too soon. I'll fix and post when I get back later this afternoon.

 

Edited February 25, 2023 by Pyewackette

[Pyewackette]

First cylinder of the day (yesterday)

From the top

Cut in half

Bottom was left thick on purpose - I like to trim foot rings.  But the walls were thicker than I was aiming for.  Also it flopped open like that when I cut it - they pretty much all did.  It wasn't flared like that before I cut it.

Second cylinder after cutting:

I intentionally aimed for a thinner bottom but that was thinner than I meant it to be, plus the island humping up in the middle is not my idea of perfection either LOL!  It is a lot taller than the first one, YAY. Walls are too thick especially towards the bottom so I tried again with cylinder 3:

I feel like I made progress getting the wall even and the bottom a little thinner than I usually like to throw but probably not thick enough to trim for the taller foot rings I prefer.  I like to be able to hold on to 'em while I'm a dippin' of the cup.  It's a couple inches shorter than #2 (I'm guessing that was around 6" tall) but the base is broader than it was on #2.

Given that up until a few days ago all my cylinders flared out at the top like upside down volcanos (Cylinder? We LAUGH at your cylinder!  We are BOWLS!) I think I've made a big improvement. If you bigify the picture you can sorta see one of my lopsided off-center vases in the background from last week.  Told ya they look funny when they get off center LOL!

Obviously there is room for more improvement but hope lives yet in my heart.

I'm working on trying to get the base smaller, but I think I have to use less clay to start with.  The instructor's advice is to use 3 lbs, and cut the top off.  But if I throw with that much clay I end up with a wide base, or else I have a tall blob to turn into a donut.  That doesn't seem to work out so well.  

@Hulk I'm not really right handed for "most things".  Just the most common things like writing and using a knife. And hand sewing, come to think of it. Pretty much had those drilled into me by other people. But most anything I've been left to my own devices, especially darts which I took up in my late 20s, I use my left hand by preference. I still, after all this time, occasionally pick up a pencil with my left hand and start writing.  I switch because the left hand doesn't write as well as the right (given I've had 55 years more of right handed practice LOL!)

And now here is a picture of something that I feel turned out fairly well other than lack of planning.  I should have etched the lines in BEFORE I chattered, like Hsin Chuen Lin - I want to grow up to be like him! The thick line was supposed to be 2 thin lines but the 2nd line got caught on the chattering and jumped the tracks so I had to hand carve it into one big line.  You can see where the top line also jumped the tracks.  I left it.  But I think my chattering is coming along!  See the nice little line  around the foot rim?  For catchin' drippy glaze, I hope.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Pyewackette