Fair Price For Used Kiln

[Judy_in_GA]

I'm getting a little frustrated with firing at my community studio because of the length of time it takes to get a piece from greenware to finished glaze ... sometimes as much as 3 weeks depending on my timing at the studio and theirs.  So I started looking for used kilns.

 

I've found a Skutt 1027 which is the 3 section model, purchased new in 1999, one owner  , but not fired since 2008.  The pictures it looks brand new ... no rust, dust, etc.  They are asking $800 but I have not begun negotiating because I like my ducks in a row first.

 

So ... questions.  Is $800 a fair price?  What should I reasonably expect them to demonstrate?  ie turns on, controller moves through programs, etc?  It's 220 which I'll have to have an electrician put in so I can't check anything yet.  What else to ask/consider?

 

Thanks for your time!

[Pres]

I have purchased kilns with setters and such for $150 from my school district. Barely used as it was in a JrH school where the teacher was scared to teach messy clay in her clean pristine studio/classroom. I have also purchased new from L&L and used for the last 30+ years. I am now purchasing as kiln for 80 with all of the hardware/shelves & stilts.

 

Now I look at your 1027, and if new-ish would figure 800 is a fair price especially if it has a programmable controller, or even a kiln setter set up, If in fact that price included shelves and stilts, I would figure it even a better deal.  Look into it, negotiate. . . and good luck!

 

best,

Pres

[Judy_in_GA]

Thanks Pres ... It's a KilnMaster so does have the programmable controller rather than kiln setter.  It does include some shelves.

[Crusty]

i know if a person was to upgrade a kiln sitter to a digital controller it costs anywhere from 500 to 1200 ... i can get one for mine for 600 and another for  1000 ..

[bciskepottery]

Definitely recommend getting a kiln.  It is just not a matter of time to get things fired at the community studio, but you'll have more control over all aspects -- doing holds, slow cooling, etc.  Just remember, it will take a fair amount of wares to fill -- what is the capacity?  Are you comfortable making enough wares to fill it and fire it? 

 

Also think about adding a vent kit.  Is the brick 3" or 2 1/2"? 

[Guest JBaymore]

Before you buy... check with an electrician about getting the necessary power put into the space you plan for the kiln.  THAT might be more than the cost of the kiln by far.

 

And as Bruce suggested above .... get a kiln vent for sure.... not just for the health stuff... but for the quality of the fired work.

 

best,

 

...............john 

[Judy_in_GA]

Pretty big ... will do vessels 23" tall and 21" wide.  This is why I ask you guys ... I would not have thought about what it would take ME to fill it.  I do some fairly big pieces in platters/trays, birdhouse votive holders, planters.

 

From past topics I don't think I need a vent kit because this will be put in a separate shed outside.  We live in the country with only a volunteer fire dept so I'm not comfortable putting a kiln in my basement studio.

 

Don't know yet on brick size ... I'll ask.

[Guest JBaymore]

Kiln vents are important for the WORK... not just the potter's health.

 

Having adequate air circulation is critical in preventing a LOT of defects that only show up in the later GLAZE firing.  The cause is in the bisque....... but everyone assumes it was a glaze firing problem.

 

If you use dark clay bodies, earthenware, "dirty" clay bodies, pack the kiln REALLY tightly..... a vent will pay for itself quickly.

 

best,

 

..............john

[dhPotter]

Get a vent.

As John stated "not just for the health stuff... but for the quality of the fired work." You will be firing oxidation. Which means oxygen. Which means your glazes will be brighter and have more life to them. I have had stuff fired in an electric kiln that did not have a vent - produces a dull finish. Take the same glaze and fire with a vent - brightens right up - you will be amazed. I am sure there are other very good points to have a vent - other than the superficial - more scientific than I know about.

 

John you beat me to the reply!

[Guest JBaymore]

John you beat me to the reply!

 

You hit the stuff I did not mention.  Nice.

 

Teamwork!

 

best,

 

.................john

[Judy_in_GA]

Because of my proposed setup, outside shed away from the house, the electrical work is required and I expected that.

 

Good info on the vent ... I must be misremembering that it was only for potter health.

 

Yes currently ^6 oxidation with stoneware, 2 clay bodies one buff and one red.

[Joseph Fireborn]

Get a vent. I tried going without a vent. Pinholes, dull glazes, lots of headache. Also it hasn't been mentioned here, but a vent extends the life of your elements a good amount, because they are designed to be in an oxygen rich environment. You can build your own vent, its rather easy for a lot less than the vent kit that they sell you. I did it without any metal cutting or hard times. Once I got the parts took me like 1 hour to put it together.

 

It is going to be interesting how much it cost to run wiring to your shed. I hope it isn't too far, because that copper wire at that gauge is expensive. I put mine in the garage instead of the shed because of the cost to run the electricity out there.

[Judy_in_GA]

BTW This is a long term plan ... I don't expect to be firing here next week .  The kiln will sit for a while until everything else is in place.  I see lots of used kilns for sale but few look in as good a condition as this one.  Most of the others look like scrap pile rejects.

 

I know that on all the other electric kilns I've seen people show here ... many are in your house/garage/basement studios.  Am I being too much of an alarmist thinking it needs to go out in a shed because of our fire dept. situation?  It's hardly the same thing as a dryer or an oven but maybe there's no cause for alarm?  In addition to being safety conscious I'm cheap too but in this case cheap doesn't outweigh safety.  

[oldlady]

you are beginning to think like a kiln owner, good.  look around your house and see where the electrical wiring comes in from the outside.  is is anywhere near a good location for your kiln ?  the shorter the run from your electrical panel, the better.   how many amps in the panel?  how many circuit breakers, fuses are in use already?   you are wise to think of this stuff first, ask your insurance agent about location and what is necessary to keep your policy in effect.  there are a lot of things to balance.  maybe the shed is a good idea.  it isn't any fun to have to go out in the bad weather and load a kiln.  how can you transport pots to the shed?  

 

ask an electrician about alternatives, sub-panel, running a new line to shed from power co?  they will all ask to come out and look the place over.  try to get info over the phone if able, saves time, saves your guilty feelings if you do not hire the man who made the trip aaallllllltheway out here just to look.

 

and, as always, check your local library for UP TO DATE diy books on electricity just to be educated, not to do it yourself.  yes, there are horror stories but there are also thousands of kilns in homes all over the world without problems. 

[neilestrick]

A Skutt 1027 will pull 48 amps, and will need a 60 amp breaker. Get an electrician in to make sure your breaker panel can handle it. As John said, the cost of running the electrical lines can cost more than the kiln. You don't want any surprises.

 

Make sure any kiln you buy is set up for 240 volts, single phase, because that is what you have for service in your home. 220 is a generic term. Kilns are either 208 or 240 volts, and single or 3 phase. The kiln must be the same as your house or it will not work properly.

 

Check the elements on any kiln you consider buying. If the coils are standing tall and not falling over on each other, there's a good chance they are still useable. If the coils are laying over, they need to be replaced. For a Skutt 1027 it's $300 for a set of elements. The bricks should be light in color and not all chipped up. If they are turning yellowish, they are getting old and near the end of their lifespan. Open the control box and check all the connections. If they are corroded then you will likely need to replace the wires soon. It's a cheap fix, though, so it's not necessarily a deal breaker. However on a Skutt that means also replacing the elements since they are crimp connected. If they don't have the ability to plug it in and test the controller, you may be able to get them to agree to take it back if it doesn't work, or take less money for it. A new controller will cost about $275.

[Judy_in_GA]

The current panel is in the basement about 20 ft away from the studio space.... it would be much, much further if I located a shed outdoors.

 

So if the condition is all show and no go, this $800 kiln could easily cost upwards of $1400 ... and a new one is around $2000.

 

 

 

Thanks to all of you for your very valuable input ... lots more to this than just the cost and condition of the kiln.

[oldlady]

CHECK  the condition of the kiln and look at the shelves and posts that come with it.  be sure to look at the shelves and see if the user treated the shelves well.  that is an indication of how the kiln was treated.  count the $ of all those extras to compare costs.  check bailey's for a sale on kilns.

[Joseph Fireborn]

Here is my take on a kiln in the house. I am very cautious about it. I had a professional electrician come in who I know and trust, who has been in the business for 30 years and works for a legit company. He brought the parts that I listed from the L&L manual. The exact gauge wire, breaker for the correct amperage. He checked my breaker box for safety before installing the new breaker. My breaker box was in my garage where I was putting my kiln, so my plugin is literally a foot below my breaker box. This saved me a lot of money as I had like 2 foot of wire was all I needed. After he installed everything, he checked it all and said everything was good to go. He even brought the plug that I needed for the kiln, which he said was hard to find. 

 

I made sure my kiln was as far away as the manual recommended from the walls, the cord isn't touching the kiln. I installed a nest wireless fire alarm which is connected to my son's ipad, my wifes ipad, and my cheap andriod phone. So there are 3 devices that will alarm if it detects smoke or CO. The alarm is installed directly above the breaker box and kiln. I also have a large fire extinguisher in my garage about 10 ft from my kiln. I never leave the house when the kiln is running, no exceptions. I will stop the kiln if something comes up and I have to leave. The pots in the kiln are not worth more to me than my house. I check my plug every 10-15 firings for corrosion. I open the breaker box as well and check for any odd signs around the breaker that the kiln is on.

 

With all that being said, I feel pretty comfortable now after about 35 bisque and glaze firings, but I still stick to my rules. The main time I run my kiln is at night when I am sleeping, that is why I got the nest alarm more than anything as I didn't want a fire to start in the garage and me not know about it until it was too late. So now I know if something happens I can run out there, grab the fire extinguisher and put it out.

 

Everything I have read about electric kilns says that almost all the fires come from a incorrectly installed breaker in the box or people skimping on the wiring and something melting down. Hardly any are from the actual kiln catching on fire, I don't even know if it is even possible for a kiln to catch on fire? 

 

I think carelessness is the main cause of fires. Just random carelessness. 

 

Oh, just a side note, most people recommend getting as big of kiln as you can get. I went against that grain and got a smaller kiln(18x16.5). I am so happy I did that now, because it cools quick, I don't feel bad firing it without a full load, and it is nice for testing. I can fill it up with furniture and fire the test pots in the middle of the kiln. There has been times where I wish I could put wider pots in it, but in the end I have gained much more out of my smaller kiln than I would a bigger kiln. It allows for rapid testing and adjusting of small things quickly.

 

Where if your firing a larger kiln you are firing a lot of empty space or your filling it up with pots that might come out terrible if you haven't tested properly. Just something to think about, if it turns out your breaker can't handle it, or that gauge of wire is too expensive to run that far. The smaller kilns don't require as big of breakers. For example you need a 60 amp breaker, I needed only a 30 amp breaker. Another thing is I had 10 gauge wire, your probably looking at like 5-6 gauge which is a lot more expensive.

 

Not telling you what to do, just helping you with ideas if it turns out to be a fortune to run wire that far or if your breaker can't handle 60amp, there are some benefits of a smaller kiln.

[Babs]

A Skutt 1027 will pull 48 amps, and will need a 60 amp breaker. Get an electrician in to make sure your breaker panel can handle it. As John said, the cost of running the electrical lines can cost more than the kiln. You don't want any surprises.

 

Make sure any kiln you buy is set up for 240 volts, single phase, because that is what you have for service in your home. 220 is a generic term. Kilns are either 208 or 240 volts, and single or 3 phase. The kiln must be the same as your house or it will not work properly.

 

 

Neil, what are the advantags of paying for 3 phase? I guess my queston is what are the limits on a single phase kiln..Size?

No electrician here.

I think the kiln I have is 2 phase but an electrician directly wired it so it works on my single phase power???

Can you elaborate?

[DirtRoads]

I've found it cheaper and safer to get new meters as opposed to running wire long distances.   I have 3 meters here and the 2 added ones are 200 amp.    If your meter is anything less than 200 amp, you might have problems.    You don't want to get close to overloading ... running heat, dryers, etc along with your kiln.

 

In most areas, the electric companies are bound to provide meter service.  Here, they will run 600 feet (for free) and the pole charge is $35.

 

(2 phase .. isn't that obsolete?  1 phase=residential, 3 phase=commercial )

[Guest JBaymore]

 Here, they will run 600 feet (for free) and the pole charge is $35.

 

 

You'd have a coronary here in NH. 

 

best,

 

.................john

[Judy_in_GA]

I went down after dinner and checked the panel ... main is 200amp but we're all electric here ... a/c, air handler, well pump, water heater etc so I need to get a Load Calculation done to see if it can take an additional 60amp circuit.  There's plenty of room in the panel itself for additional breakers.

 

Grype ... I'm with you, we don't leave the house with even the dryer going.  On the plus side, both my husband and I work from home so we are here pretty much 24/7.  The alarm is a great idea.  We can probably get an additional sensor for our current ADT system.  We're about to upgrade to their Pulse system so everything is wireless and connected to internet/phone.   On your smaller kiln, is 18x16.5 the interior chamber dimension?

 

DIrtRoads ... thanks for the suggestion of an additional meter, I'll check on that.

[neilestrick]

 

A Skutt 1027 will pull 48 amps, and will need a 60 amp breaker. Get an electrician in to make sure your breaker panel can handle it. As John said, the cost of running the electrical lines can cost more than the kiln. You don't want any surprises.

 

Make sure any kiln you buy is set up for 240 volts, single phase, because that is what you have for service in your home. 220 is a generic term. Kilns are either 208 or 240 volts, and single or 3 phase. The kiln must be the same as your house or it will not work properly.

 

 

Neil, what are the advantags of paying for 3 phase? I guess my queston is what are the limits on a single phase kiln..Size?

No electrician here.

I think the kiln I have is 2 phase but an electrician directly wired it so it works on my single phase power???

Can you elaborate?

 

 

You either have a single phase kiln or a 3 phase kiln. 2 phase systems date back to the early 1900's and are rarely seen any more. Direct wiring does not affect the phase. Single phase uses 2 hot wires, 3 phase is 3 hots. Most kilns do not use a neutral wire, just a ground, so single phase kilns have a 3 prong plug, and 3 phase kilns have 4 prongs. Some smaller kilns use a neutral with single phase, so a 4 prong plug, but you do't see those much.

 

You can't get 3 phase at your house in most towns. It's for commercial use. In homes, the service is 240 volts, single phase, unless you're in a converted commercial building in which case it's possible that you have 208 volt service, but I've personally never seen that. Commercial spaces can be 240 or 208 volt, single or 3 phase. Most newer commercial spaces are 208 volt 3 phase. The benefit of 3 phase is that you can pull the same wattage on lower amperage, so you can get more stuff running off a breaker panel than at single phase. Since commercial spaces run a lot more machinery than your average household, it's a very handy thing to have. So for instance a kiln that pulls 48 amps on single phase will only pull 27.7 amps at 3 phase, since the power is distributed over 3 wires instead of 2. So you could run 3 kilns on 100 amps instead of 2.

[Mark C.]

Babs

But first, a short explanation of three-phase power.

Alternating current does just as it's name implies and alternates cyclically, first flowing in one direction in a circuit and then reversing to flow in the other. As it does this, the magnitude of the voltage supplied varies continuously between a positive and negative maximum amplitude. In the US and anywhere else with 60Hz power, this cycle happens 60 times per second. Picture a sine wave: The amplitude of the supplied voltage passes through zero twice per cycle, and at those moments the power supplied is nada. While this doesn't matter to many electrical appliances, it has significant implications on larger equipment—particularly motors.

Three-phase power provides three alternating currents—essentially three separate electric services—uniformly separated in phase angle. That is, the points in time at which each leg of alternating current reaches a maximum voltage are separated by 1/3 of the time in a full cycle. What this means practically is that the total amount of power supplied by all three alternating currents remains constant. The three phases share a common neutral leg in most installations.

To electricity consumers, that consistency in power delivery is the major benefit. The design of three-phase motors, with one set of windings for each phase, is highly efficient and allows three-phase motors to draw significantly less current than the equivalent single-phase motor.

 

 

Many areas do not have 3 phase power-most industrial places have it as it more efficient and will cost less for large consumers of power.

Most homes do not have it as its not on the poles outside.

That said 240 is more efficient than 120

another way to think about power is this simple almost true model.

110 has 1 hot leg

220 has 2 hot legs

3 phase has 3 hot legs

 

Mark

[Joseph Fireborn]

On your smaller kiln, is 18x16.5 the interior chamber dimension?

 

Yes. After the element holders though, its really more like 15.5 inches inside, because the element holders are about a little under half inch. It's little, don't get me wrong, but it works for me, when I finally start selling my pots and supply becomes a problem, I will get another kiln, until then this baby works fine.