Gerstley and EPK

[Dick White]

Some N. America/USA oriented questions: This group being populated by the most knowledgeable of all the glaze groups I stumble around in, does anybody have the real story on Laguna and Gerstley (other than it has become crazy expensive)? There is also some noise about availability (or lack thereof) of EPK.

Just wondering...

dw

[Mark C.]

Edgars plastic clay from Florida as far as I know is still mining right along.  You can always call them-they are really a nice outfit with a small museum-years ago I traded them a few mugs for their museum and they gave me some nice T shirts. 

Now as far as the Grestly Borate well you already know the story from years back when it was going off the market. Laguna bouight the mine and had enough for a long time-my understanding is that time is now gone and supplies are running low  and now the price is refecting that

A few of us bought up large quantities long ago when its was going to disappear and then it did not. I bought a ton at that time and was at one time giving bags away as party favors to my fellow potter friends. Now its crazy expensive even for us  Laguna distribiutors

The trick is always to buy a lot of what you use and sit on it easpecially when the price is right.

I bought 3,000#s of Kingman Feldsapr in 1982 when it went away and am on the last bag right now. It cost me 300$ for that 3,000#s back then and I had to drive my pickup to Kingman AZ to get it. 

Now what rumors are kicking around on EPK???? 

 

Edited June 26, 2023 by Mark C.

[Min]

11 hours ago, Dick White said:

There is also some noise about availability (or lack thereof) of EPK.

Was it credible noise? 

If you do a search for GB on Laguna in California webpage you get "No results for Gerstley Borate (https://www.lagunaclay.com)" Sold out would be the logical assumption but then again we've been down this road before with GB. Given all the alternative sources for boron that have become available since the last time GB became unavailable there shouldn't be too much trouble sourcing other materials to supply boron.

edit: @Mark C., since you have Laguna Distributer status could you ask them if GB is well and truly finished?

 

Edited June 25, 2023 by Min

[Bill Kielb]

just searching Axner (Laguna purchased them years ago) 
Here is Gerstley on the Axner site https://www.axner.com/gerstley-borate.aspx looks like you can get it in the mid three dollar range ($3.68) in quantity.Laguna also still has Gerstley in their site catalogue. Addditionally, Epk appears to be $0.52 per pound in quantity.

Edited June 25, 2023 by Bill Kielb

[Min]

For sure not everywhere has sold out of their existing supplies of GB but the speculation is the California mine blended stock that came after the mine shut down 23 years ago is now finished. 

Edited June 25, 2023 by Min

[Mark C.]

I'll see what I can find out-meanwhile its still available -it just costs more now

[Hulk]

Although I've an unopened fifty pound GB sack, am looking forward to adapting to Gillespie Borate and/or frits.
The choice may become simple, as I expect that Gillespie Borate price will (continue to) bloat; it's $90 for a fifty lb sack a'ready*!
...still a bit cheaper than frits, but not by much.
 

*at a "nearby" supplier that I like

Edited June 25, 2023 by Hulk
add a word

[Bill Kielb]

2 hours ago, Min said:

For sure not everywhere has sold out of their existing supplies of GB but the speculation is the California mine blended stock that came after the mine shut down 23 years ago is now finished. 

The Axner site is still posting the 2011 memo so maybe still part of the 3000 tons they found at the mine.

https://www.axner.com/pdf/laguna/Chemical_Composition_of_Gerstley_Borate.pdf

Edited June 25, 2023 by Bill Kielb

[neilestrick]

3 hours ago, Hulk said:

looking forward to adapting to Gillespie Borate and/or frits.

I've used Gillespie Borate for a long time, and it works great. It tends to be a bit stronger than Gerstley, though, so definitely test. I've found about a 3-5% reduction to be necessary in most of my glazes.

[Callie Beller Diesel]

After the last time it went off the market, I managed to come into most of a 50 lb bag. I’ve wound up using very little of it. I use more frit 3124 and 3134 because I find frit recipes easier to fix bucket behaviours with. 

[dhPotter]

I bought into the GB not going to be around back in 2008. Have been using Boraq, 1 for 1, as my Gerstley Borate substitute. It was around $70 per 50 lb bag about 5-6 years ago.

Edited June 26, 2023 by dhPotter

[Mark C.]

2 hours ago, dhPotter said:

 Its Florida so what can I say about that? ... Now what rumors are kicking around on EPK???? Is Florida banning the stuff??

It irks me to no end how some on this forum think they can take little political jabs at the expense of others. Old saying is, If you live in a glass house, don't throw stones. So much negativity can be said about a particular state on the Left Coast. But I will refrain as this forum is not a political website.

I agree with you on the jabs and removed them as this place is not for that -sorry as I degressed .I thank you for that reminder as well. Its all about clay nothing else .

Now on point Laguna has a 3 year supply at current consumption rates of Gretsly Borate. The mine is played out and this supply is all that will be ever.

In terms of The EPK shortage-yes it real and Laguna says it a weather supply mine/ chain issue. Its also happening to red clay and other materials this year due to  wacky weather issues they said. Storms and rain he said are so bad its really affected many products they use (we use in clay). One can assume as weather is a changing in many spots  on the planet this will only get worse.

The best policy is to stock up when you can.

 

Edited June 26, 2023 by Mark C.

[Min]

Good to have the correct info re GB. 

If the EPK supply does turn into an issue a really good sub would be to use Pioneer Kaolin in place of it. Chem is really close, only thing to really be of note is the titanium is higher,  EPK is 0.01 (in unity formula) vs Pioneer at 0.05. It's from Georgia so supply should be okay unless of course it's a rainy night.

[Morgan]

I am not sure if it has changed but I placed a large dry material order not too long ago and Laguna was 100% out of EPK. 

[Dick White]

Thank you all who chimed in. I think I have enough EPK on hand in both studios I work in to get us through any temporary shortages. I'll just keep an eye on inventory availability at my local supplier and grab a bag when they have it sooner than I might actually need it just so I have it. The Gerstley situation is more of a problem. I rejoiced 10 years ago when Laguna bought the remains of the mine yard and processed it into what was loosely described as a "lifetime supply," or at least the rest of my short lifetime remaining in the pottery business. But wow, 3 years remaining supply is not long. Yes, I can still get it at crazy expensive prices, but soon money will be irrelevant. I had set a summer project to recalculate and test all the studio glazes for 3134 in place of Gerstley, mostly to save the county some money. 3134 (or any frit) has always been moderately expensive as materials go, but a bag of Gerstley is now almost 50%  more expensive than 3134. A rough calculation of a year's glaze usage at the studio suggests I could save $500 a year using 3134. But now I see it is no longer just a question of money. I need to get cracking on this project before Gerstley simply is no more.

[Kelly in AK]

Dick, I think you’re going to like the frit! I resisted for years, not so much from cost, but because frits felt so “artificial,” and Gerstley is (was ) such a miracle material. I got over it. So totally over it. 3124 and 3134 are my trusty friends now. A little more Epsom salts, a touch of bentonite, because the magic power of Gerstley to keep things in suspension is gone. I’ve still got a couple glazes I need to recalculate myself though. 

[GEP]

2 hours ago, Kelly in AK said:

Dick, I think you’re going to like the frit! I resisted for years, not so much from cost, but because frits felt so “artificial,” and Gerstley is (was ) such a miracle material. I got over it. So totally over it. 3124 and 3134 are my trusty friends now. A little more Epsom salts, a touch of bentonite, because the magic power of Gerstley to keep things in suspension is gone. I’ve still got a couple glazes I need to recalculate myself though. 

I am heavy sighing over Gerstley as well. When I did my last supply run this spring, I bought myself about 3 years supply of it. So the clock is ticking, I have 3 years to reformulate my glossy glazes. I also bought some 3124, and I have some 3134 on hand already. Time to start testing. I’m encouraged to hear that others have already found their way through this. 

[Min]

2 hours ago, GEP said:

I am heavy sighing over Gerstley as well. When I did my last supply run this spring, I bought myself about 3 years supply of it. So the clock is ticking, I have 3 years to reformulate my glossy glazes. I also bought some 3124, and I have some 3134 on hand already. Time to start testing. I’m encouraged to hear that others have already found their way through this. 

I'm going to make a big guess here, thinking your liner glaze has a fair bit of gerstley in it, like more than 10-15%? If so then your best sub is probably Gillespie borate. In Canada this is running at around $125/50 lbs so it's likely be less than that where you are.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Min
clarity

[neilestrick]

I stopped using Gerstley around 2003 when it disappeared before Laguna started production again. I was working as the clay and glaze tech for A.R.T. clay at the time, and spent a great deal of time helping customers try to reformulate with frits. Unfortunately, there were a lot of recipes out there that used a very high percentage of Gerstley in them and couldn't be reformulated. Most of those were not good glazes from a durability standpoint, though, so it's not all bad that they went away.

I regularly get batches of glaze materials donated to me or sold to me for cheap from people in the area who are moving away or simply shutting down there studios for whatever reason, so I've got a few bags right now. I've reformulated some of my class glazes that I usually use 3134 or Gillespie in so that I can use up the Gerstley, but I won't miss it at all when it's gone. I prefer Gillespie or frits.

FYI, most industrial ceramics companies won't touch Gerstley because of all the issues that it's had over the years. I was talking with a rep from HC Spinks (they supply Kohler with their clays) one day while working at A.R.T., and someone was talking to a customer about Gerstely and the rep was shocked that we used it, especially that we used it in glazes. He said the only people he knew of that used it in any sort of firing process was the roofing tile industry, which has very broad tolerances.