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Pyewackette

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  1. Like
    Pyewackette got a reaction from Rae Reich in Jiffler vs Jiffy Mixer vs Turbomixer   
    @MinI had seen you mention that in an older thread but you hadn't named it.  I was thinking I'd have to do a Google image search LOL!
    I'm finding so many different items for stirring stuff, including a cheaper look-alike for the Jiffler on Home Depot.  I'll list them all here but I'm looking to get that Hyde Stir Whip as it looks like the safest bet LOL!
    Allway Helix Paint Mixer 5 gal $9
    HYDE 43430 5 Gallon Drill Attachment Paint Mixer $13.43
    "Generic" Paint Mixer Very different look to this one $15.39
    5 gal "Squirrel" mixer $12.14 The name alone warrants a look
    Jiffler type mixer #1 5gal $27.88
    Jiffler type mixer #2 1 gal $9.31
    Jiffler type mixer #2 5 gal $26.00
    All the types available at Sheffield
     There's way more out there than I thought!
  2. Like
    Pyewackette got a reaction from Hulk in cement board bat   
    So is 3 weeks good enough for a "good long test run"?
    Currently I have one, count it, ONE, Hydrobat that I intend to use for platters/bonsai pots (so they pop off nice and neat).  I'm about to buy a couple of the Northstar pottery bat system thingies with the inserts (a couple because dark clay and white clay/porcelain shouldn't mix) and some 12" Medex bats.  But I've always sort of hankered after some sort of Hardiebacker based bat, just couldn't see a way to get around the abrasiveness.
  3. Like
    Pyewackette got a reaction from Callie Beller Diesel in What a difference .. a CLAY makes ...   
    Aaand here is one result from my Throwing Big class.  Its not actually as uneven as it looks, I've discovered my cell phone camera tends to distort things if they're not just exactly head on and centered.  That thing is somewhere between 2.5' and 3' tall LOL!  I am disappointed in the rim.  I just couldn't find any way to get the nice rolled thick rim like I had on the vase-like object above.  This was accomplished by throwing about the bottom 1/3rd and then coiling up.
    I'm hoping to put it in the next soda firing with some version of sprayed-on washes like iron and cobalt with some flux material to make them satiny but still show the texture.  Actual glaze would just hide the texture (and celadons are not an option because this is the old studio clay and it looks really crappy under a celadon).
    I slapped on a lotta slip to do the texturing.

     
  4. Like
    Pyewackette reacted to Pres in Jiffler vs Jiffy Mixer vs Turbomixer   
    I use something similar to the "squirrel mixer" it mixes well, and works the stuff off the bottom. I don't have any glazes that hard pan.
     
    best,
    Pres
  5. Like
    Pyewackette reacted to Mark C. in Jiffler vs Jiffy Mixer vs Turbomixer   
    have used many types and brands of mixer over my 50 year career. 
    these are not jiffley which have no side or bottom protection
    https://www.jiffymixer.com/
    Make the best as far as I know
    I never have them eat the sides or bottoms.I use three sizes two small ones in cordless drill (these smaller ones last about 20 years) and are great for smaller containers
    And the larger 5 gallon size with a 1/2 shaft diameter for my 1/2 electic drill-I use this every two weeks. 
    I mix so much glaze  that I wear the larger size  out-I use  one and keep in stock as spare . 5 gallon bucket size is perfect for me and the whole thing is  about 2 feet long plus the drill from harbor frieght. I am on about #6 of the large size as I wear the bottom stainless out and it then become sharp and can wear a bucket . A hobbist will never wear one out as they are made to last the large size is just over $50 if i recall. Been  since I bought one as I have a spare . Yes these cost more but last longer work better and sometimes you get what you pay for.
    I would measure mine exactly but I'm in Bali diving for 5 weeks -back home on the 8th
  6. Like
    Pyewackette reacted to Hulk in cement board bat   
    Cement tile backer board seemed too rough, although I hadn't considered sanding it off to smooth it some.
    We're putting up cement siding board at the boy's house, hmm, the back (smooth) side might scuff off smooth enough to make a good bat?
    It's stiff, should be fine with water and otherwise generally durable.
    How it holds up to tools, that would seem to be "the rub" - I'm off to try it now.
    ...

    That's how wide the planks are (just over eight inches), so diagonal holes work.
    For medium and smaller wares, np.
    Here I was ready to go the rib, so, about to cut away that bit of smeared out skirt, which did serve well enough to protect my finger bits from the bat, which is still rough. I used my least favorite wood knife - one I use most, heh; it becoming a nub sooner, that's maybe a drawback.
    The material is absorbent enough that getting it damp to start is a thing, like plaster, but not nearly as pronounced.
    I liked it well enough to make some more!
    The edges need to be cut smooth and clean, err, cut as clean as possible, then cut back and sanded.
    A few passes with the sander smoothed the surface a lot! It still abrasive though.
    The other side is embossed with a woodgrain pattern, so I'll consider these one-sided bats.
    A coat of durable finish of some kind might serve - giving up the absorbency but cutting down on the abrasiveness.
    Lightweight, very rigid (some of the plastic bats flex, which can wonk a tall ware), flat, thick enough to hide the pins, easy to make.
    I'll update after a good long test run...
     
  7. Like
    Pyewackette reacted to neilestrick in Protein shake mixer for glazes   
    I use the cheapest stick/hand/immersion blender I can find. They tend to wear out faster than with kitchen use due to the abrasiveness of the glaze materials, but they work great.
  8. Like
    Pyewackette reacted to JohnnyK in Protein shake mixer for glazes   
    I have 2 of those that I picked up at a thrift store for $5 apiece. I also use a small coffee grinder for turning hardened glazed into powder, also around $5...
  9. Like
    Pyewackette got a reaction from Callie Beller Diesel in What a difference .. a CLAY makes ...   
    So the Studio Manager where I've been working decided to go to bagged clay for most things, which means the studio clay I've been struggling with is now reserved to classes and sales to local schools.  I picked up a sample (big enough to make a fair sized bowl) of each of the 3 clays he currently has available to us and piggybacked onto his next order for 5 more.  The 3 we currently have are from Armadillo, Raku, cone 5 Porcelain, and Balcones Dark.  Until my new clay gets here I'll just be working with the porcelain.
    I THREW PORCELAIN!  I threw it thick, granted, but it didn't fall down and die.  That rim is a scosh short of 1/4" thick.  Yes, I'm squashing it and going to learn to go much much thinner.
     

    The Raku is just not very good for throwing as might be expected but I threw with it also.  I just realized I failed to take a picture of that, but it wasn't pretty anyway.  I turned it into a planter.  Who knows if it will survive kiln firing.  Unlike the porcelain, it is SUPER thin.  If I can get near that with porcelain it'll be a miracle LOL!  But here's a pic of a vase-like-object with the studio clay, the cracking is not thanks to sodium silicate, that's just what the clay does.  I was going for a spiral effect and that's what I got.

    The Balcones Dark practically threw itself.  The walls are properly thin and even and that bowl at 9" across (and flared out that way) is twice as big as anything I could manage with the studio clay which would just slump and I couldn't pull it out anywhere near even anyway.

    And here is an experiment with drippy glaze that failed largely because the kiln shut off due to a power failure and then started up again by itself so things got overfired.  That is a white glaze with blue celadon over the top.  I applied the blue celadon with a spoon to make drips down the side of the outside which I actually failed to take a picture of,  I waxed the inside so it wouldn't drip inside but didn't wax all the way down so it dripped past the wax and made dribbles in the bottom half anyway.  Then when the kiln re-fired itself, the wax was gone so we got melting celadon from the rim down into the inside of the bowl anyway.  But I like the effect, sans the overfiring, so I'll be trying that again.

    So that's what I've been up to pottery-wise this past month.  I spent the whole summer either in my garden or with my grandson.  I have bushels of stuff to put up since it frosted 2 days ago.  Peas are still going and I didn't make it to the maters and peppers but I've got a ton of edible gourds and squash to put up.
  10. Like
    Pyewackette got a reaction from Rae Reich in What a difference .. a CLAY makes ...   
    So the Studio Manager where I've been working decided to go to bagged clay for most things, which means the studio clay I've been struggling with is now reserved to classes and sales to local schools.  I picked up a sample (big enough to make a fair sized bowl) of each of the 3 clays he currently has available to us and piggybacked onto his next order for 5 more.  The 3 we currently have are from Armadillo, Raku, cone 5 Porcelain, and Balcones Dark.  Until my new clay gets here I'll just be working with the porcelain.
    I THREW PORCELAIN!  I threw it thick, granted, but it didn't fall down and die.  That rim is a scosh short of 1/4" thick.  Yes, I'm squashing it and going to learn to go much much thinner.
     

    The Raku is just not very good for throwing as might be expected but I threw with it also.  I just realized I failed to take a picture of that, but it wasn't pretty anyway.  I turned it into a planter.  Who knows if it will survive kiln firing.  Unlike the porcelain, it is SUPER thin.  If I can get near that with porcelain it'll be a miracle LOL!  But here's a pic of a vase-like-object with the studio clay, the cracking is not thanks to sodium silicate, that's just what the clay does.  I was going for a spiral effect and that's what I got.

    The Balcones Dark practically threw itself.  The walls are properly thin and even and that bowl at 9" across (and flared out that way) is twice as big as anything I could manage with the studio clay which would just slump and I couldn't pull it out anywhere near even anyway.

    And here is an experiment with drippy glaze that failed largely because the kiln shut off due to a power failure and then started up again by itself so things got overfired.  That is a white glaze with blue celadon over the top.  I applied the blue celadon with a spoon to make drips down the side of the outside which I actually failed to take a picture of,  I waxed the inside so it wouldn't drip inside but didn't wax all the way down so it dripped past the wax and made dribbles in the bottom half anyway.  Then when the kiln re-fired itself, the wax was gone so we got melting celadon from the rim down into the inside of the bowl anyway.  But I like the effect, sans the overfiring, so I'll be trying that again.

    So that's what I've been up to pottery-wise this past month.  I spent the whole summer either in my garden or with my grandson.  I have bushels of stuff to put up since it frosted 2 days ago.  Peas are still going and I didn't make it to the maters and peppers but I've got a ton of edible gourds and squash to put up.
  11. Like
    Pyewackette got a reaction from Rae Reich in Jiffler vs Jiffy Mixer vs Turbomixer   
    I'm looking at glaze mixers and apparently I have THREE choices.  The Jiffler looks niftiest but I wonder if those exposed blades could cut into bucket sides.  Also the thing about low speed is concerning as I don't believe I have a drill any more that you can set for high or low speed, you just have to have a light trigger finger. Sometimes mine sort of spasms and revs the drill up for a few seconds. And I have no idea how effective the Turbomixer might be or if it could damage bucket sides as well.
    Anybody have experience or opinions on these?
    BTW I've been off gardening, and yes, I just harvested almost the last of the garden day before yesterday.  I have BUSHELS - BUSHELS I say.  The peas are still on though.  My son saw my haul and opined that I should plant LESS next year. Pshaw!  I didn't even make it to the maters and peppers before full dark and too cold to pick in the cold cold rain.
  12. Like
    Pyewackette reacted to Min in Jiffler vs Jiffy Mixer vs Turbomixer   
    Throwing out another alternative, the Hyde Stir Whip. I had problems with my Jiffy mixer scraping plastic from the sides of the buckets over time so I started using a Stir Whip. I've  it for about 9 months, so far so good. I use an electric drill, haven't had splashing problems. It takes a few seconds longer to get the mass of glaze moving but once it is moving it mixes really well. 
     
     
  13. Like
    Pyewackette reacted to Hulk in Jiffler vs Jiffy Mixer vs Turbomixer   
    Hi Py, Good-oh on the garden, wish I was closer to Nowhere, to trade somewhat for a few bushels...
    I'm using:
    i) a kitchen whisk to stir up the glaze between dips/pours
    ii) a smaller, wooden handled kitchen whisk, which I've fitted with a pin that chucks into the drill motor, for powered whisking!
    iii) a long straight scraper that has a square end, for scraping down the sides and that bottom corner of glaze buckets
    If it's been more than a few weeks, I'll mix, then screen (80 or 100 mesh) the glaze, then get to work.
    My newish cordless drill has two speed ranges, and a smooth ramp on the trigger, hence I "hardly ever" make a splattery mess. Hardly. Ever!
    If ever in the market for a drill motor, check the heft, feel, and, And, the trigger action under power...
    The hand driven whisk is plenty enough to mix in that watery bit right at the surface, which makes a significant difference in the thickness and movement of the glaze layer...
  14. Like
    Pyewackette got a reaction from Babs in What a difference .. a CLAY makes ...   
    So the Studio Manager where I've been working decided to go to bagged clay for most things, which means the studio clay I've been struggling with is now reserved to classes and sales to local schools.  I picked up a sample (big enough to make a fair sized bowl) of each of the 3 clays he currently has available to us and piggybacked onto his next order for 5 more.  The 3 we currently have are from Armadillo, Raku, cone 5 Porcelain, and Balcones Dark.  Until my new clay gets here I'll just be working with the porcelain.
    I THREW PORCELAIN!  I threw it thick, granted, but it didn't fall down and die.  That rim is a scosh short of 1/4" thick.  Yes, I'm squashing it and going to learn to go much much thinner.
     

    The Raku is just not very good for throwing as might be expected but I threw with it also.  I just realized I failed to take a picture of that, but it wasn't pretty anyway.  I turned it into a planter.  Who knows if it will survive kiln firing.  Unlike the porcelain, it is SUPER thin.  If I can get near that with porcelain it'll be a miracle LOL!  But here's a pic of a vase-like-object with the studio clay, the cracking is not thanks to sodium silicate, that's just what the clay does.  I was going for a spiral effect and that's what I got.

    The Balcones Dark practically threw itself.  The walls are properly thin and even and that bowl at 9" across (and flared out that way) is twice as big as anything I could manage with the studio clay which would just slump and I couldn't pull it out anywhere near even anyway.

    And here is an experiment with drippy glaze that failed largely because the kiln shut off due to a power failure and then started up again by itself so things got overfired.  That is a white glaze with blue celadon over the top.  I applied the blue celadon with a spoon to make drips down the side of the outside which I actually failed to take a picture of,  I waxed the inside so it wouldn't drip inside but didn't wax all the way down so it dripped past the wax and made dribbles in the bottom half anyway.  Then when the kiln re-fired itself, the wax was gone so we got melting celadon from the rim down into the inside of the bowl anyway.  But I like the effect, sans the overfiring, so I'll be trying that again.

    So that's what I've been up to pottery-wise this past month.  I spent the whole summer either in my garden or with my grandson.  I have bushels of stuff to put up since it frosted 2 days ago.  Peas are still going and I didn't make it to the maters and peppers but I've got a ton of edible gourds and squash to put up.
  15. Like
    Pyewackette got a reaction from Hulk in What a difference .. a CLAY makes ...   
    So the Studio Manager where I've been working decided to go to bagged clay for most things, which means the studio clay I've been struggling with is now reserved to classes and sales to local schools.  I picked up a sample (big enough to make a fair sized bowl) of each of the 3 clays he currently has available to us and piggybacked onto his next order for 5 more.  The 3 we currently have are from Armadillo, Raku, cone 5 Porcelain, and Balcones Dark.  Until my new clay gets here I'll just be working with the porcelain.
    I THREW PORCELAIN!  I threw it thick, granted, but it didn't fall down and die.  That rim is a scosh short of 1/4" thick.  Yes, I'm squashing it and going to learn to go much much thinner.
     

    The Raku is just not very good for throwing as might be expected but I threw with it also.  I just realized I failed to take a picture of that, but it wasn't pretty anyway.  I turned it into a planter.  Who knows if it will survive kiln firing.  Unlike the porcelain, it is SUPER thin.  If I can get near that with porcelain it'll be a miracle LOL!  But here's a pic of a vase-like-object with the studio clay, the cracking is not thanks to sodium silicate, that's just what the clay does.  I was going for a spiral effect and that's what I got.

    The Balcones Dark practically threw itself.  The walls are properly thin and even and that bowl at 9" across (and flared out that way) is twice as big as anything I could manage with the studio clay which would just slump and I couldn't pull it out anywhere near even anyway.

    And here is an experiment with drippy glaze that failed largely because the kiln shut off due to a power failure and then started up again by itself so things got overfired.  That is a white glaze with blue celadon over the top.  I applied the blue celadon with a spoon to make drips down the side of the outside which I actually failed to take a picture of,  I waxed the inside so it wouldn't drip inside but didn't wax all the way down so it dripped past the wax and made dribbles in the bottom half anyway.  Then when the kiln re-fired itself, the wax was gone so we got melting celadon from the rim down into the inside of the bowl anyway.  But I like the effect, sans the overfiring, so I'll be trying that again.

    So that's what I've been up to pottery-wise this past month.  I spent the whole summer either in my garden or with my grandson.  I have bushels of stuff to put up since it frosted 2 days ago.  Peas are still going and I didn't make it to the maters and peppers but I've got a ton of edible gourds and squash to put up.
  16. Like
    Pyewackette got a reaction from Hulk in Jiffler vs Jiffy Mixer vs Turbomixer   
    I'm looking at glaze mixers and apparently I have THREE choices.  The Jiffler looks niftiest but I wonder if those exposed blades could cut into bucket sides.  Also the thing about low speed is concerning as I don't believe I have a drill any more that you can set for high or low speed, you just have to have a light trigger finger. Sometimes mine sort of spasms and revs the drill up for a few seconds. And I have no idea how effective the Turbomixer might be or if it could damage bucket sides as well.
    Anybody have experience or opinions on these?
    BTW I've been off gardening, and yes, I just harvested almost the last of the garden day before yesterday.  I have BUSHELS - BUSHELS I say.  The peas are still on though.  My son saw my haul and opined that I should plant LESS next year. Pshaw!  I didn't even make it to the maters and peppers before full dark and too cold to pick in the cold cold rain.
  17. Like
    Pyewackette got a reaction from Lucia Matos in Revisiting the pugmill decision   
    I talked to the folks at Peter Pugger yesterday and what they say is, once you have mixed one batch, you can let it pug into the nose and then mix another batch.  You can just chain it until you're done mixing (I'm talking about mixing from dry).
    I swear, multiple people (I thought) insisted the Bailey is easier to clean, but now that I've looked at them both in detail, that just can't be true.  Especially with Min's report of a 2 hour cleanout process.
    What I found really helpful is that Peter Pugger has a cleaning breakdown for each model so you can SEE just exactly what comes apart when you have to clean.  You have to go to the individual model and there is actually a tab in the info section just for cleaning.
    I was told that the mixing (from powder) capacity for each machine is roughly half the hopper size due to the way the volume changes once you wet it down - you can put roughly half the amount by weight of the dry in and that fills the chamber.  Once you add water it mixes down in volume.  So for mixing from powder
    7SS -  14 lb hopper capacity = 350 lb/hour, 7 lb mixing = 100 lb/hour 9SS -  25 lb hopper capacity = 500 lb/hour, 13 lbs mixing = 150 lb/hour 20SS - 45 lb hopper capacity = 600 lb/hour, 23 lbs mixing = 180 lb/hour Honestly even the 7SS seems like plenty for me.  If it takes me an hour to mix up 100 lbs, that doesn't seem like that much to me.  I just can't see ever meeting the potential capacity from the 20SS.  I can see a pretty big jump in output between the 7SS and the 9SS but the jump to the 20SS seems very small given the hopper capacity is nearly doubled. 
    7SS - 1/2 HP motors for both pugging and vacuum  9SS - 3/4 HP motor pugging, 1/2 HP vacuum 20SS - 1 HP motor pugging, 1/2 HP vacuum Apparently 240V is an option on any of these and I'd probably go for that - I have a 20A 240V circuit (well actually it is marked 220V in the electrical box, and my HVAC is marked 230V on the units) in the garage that I can't imagine ever having another use for, and these draw 4A, 6A, and 8A respectively (pugging motors) on 220V.  I'm a bit short on 120V circuits out there, rather save that capacity for other things.
    I'm not saying the 7SS is my best bet, but I don't see that the 20SS is a clear winner here, either.  Given the smaller motor and overall power available, I can see where the 7SS could be outgrown even by me (old decrepit neophyte that I am); but I don't see a clear advantage to going all the way to the 20SS either.
    Right now I'm inclined to stick with the 9SS.  The only advantage for me that I see with the 20SS is that the nose cone and the hopper are 2 separate pieces which should make clean out easier - with the 9SS, that is one piece and even though it weighs about the same as the 20SS nose cone alone, with clay in them, the 9SS would weigh less - BUT I would have to horse it off there without banging it into the augur.  On the 20SS, the nose cone comes off separately and then you take the (empty) hopper section off for cleaning.  Of course I could always just rig a sling to help with removal.
    I wish I could try one and see!  Anybody out there have the time to share your experience owning/using the smaller Peter Puggers?
    Pye
     
  18. Like
    Pyewackette reacted to Hulk in Really old Amoco potter's wheel   
    Stainless steel, if available, should last longer, still, use thread compound against corrosion/siezing, e.g.

    I went with wingnuts and lockwashers.
    Overlong bat pins can be a hazard, measure carefully!
  19. Like
    Pyewackette reacted to neilestrick in Really old Amoco potter's wheel   
    You can get bat pins in any length at Ace Hardware or any store that carries a decent selection of nuts and bolts. They're called hex cap screws or socket head cap screws. You need 1/4-20 size in whatever length.
  20. Like
    Pyewackette reacted to Mark C. in Masonite on plywood bats   
    People send me stuff  via email and this was one of those things-I have never tried them but This person likes them. The idea is they are light and would be lighter than my paster. That said I love my paster as the bottoms dry at same speed as tops so production is fast. wiring off pots and filping they to dry is not a production tool for me. When My plaster gets to much I will consider it. I throw a lot of forms up to 80-100 a day on 6 inch small homemade plaster (mini pie tins are the form ) bats. They are 6 across on top and about 5 on bottom. I use them on wooden ware boards.With plaster we can process the pots all in same day-handles -trimming -everything. Plaster is what makes this work. Its works when I'm working on other forms no need to flip any forms to dry bottom. Its like rust it never sleeps
    Woodpecker crafts-looks to be in Florida-free shipping over $75-goggle discount code and you may save more
    They make these in all sizes  3-7-9-12 and larger and they are pretty cheap especailly if you by some (not one).You need to mouse around the site to see what other sizes and thinkness they sell. If you finished them with something they would last a long time
    https://woodpeckerscrafts.com/7-circle-wooden-cutout-1-4-thick/?_ga=2.61608876.1219828974.1678153090-1016357538.1678153090&_gac=1.94678766.1678153121.CjwKCAiAu5agBhBzEiwAdiR5tK7lqRyZj4fTw-oCLdl9mfwPoGiAC9QebcySGbjSJw-9e9l2a7EFWhoCBXMQAvD_BwE
     
    The bigger question is how the woodpeckers make them round?? May be a good question of the week?
     
  21. Like
    Pyewackette reacted to neilestrick in Masonite on plywood bats   
    I use Medex bats. They've lasted for 20 years and they're still going strong. Medex is an exterior grade MDF, absorbent but wont' degrade like masonite. I got mine from Northstar, but there are others on the market now.
  22. Like
    Pyewackette reacted to Mark C. in Masonite on plywood bats   
    Medium-density overlay board (MDO) has a similar, smooth surface about 1⁄ 16 " thick on each face, bonded to a plywood core.
    never used it but it looks good not to be confused with MDF
    I throw on plaster 90% medex (Northstar sent me these free to try when they where testing them long ago) and blue plastic northstar bats and some formica bats homemade about 10%.(plates platter larger forms which I'm getting out of slowly)
    I have some Masonite bats that I only use to dry forms on as they warp when wet so I keep them dry-not a Masonite bat fan
    Tip of the day. You can now buy from cheaper crafts outlets(online)  those MDO circles precut-you just need to drill them
  23. Like
    Pyewackette reacted to oldlady in Masonite on plywood bats   
    envy you moving near bailey, pye.   i have a lot of bats made of Duron, a double sided masonite.  i had a 4x8 sheet made into bats back in the 1990s.  still going strong.    i do not know the relationship of the business called masonite and the brand name Duron.  it seems to have changed.   there are still duron bats for sale but i do not like the holes.  one is round and the other is a slot.   i gave a bunch to mea, good elephant pottery several years ago, maybe she will chime in on durability.
  24. Like
    Pyewackette reacted to Russ in Masonite on plywood bats   
    Medex maybe?
  25. Like
    Pyewackette reacted to Magnolia Mud Research in Masonite on plywood bats   
    A good "BAT" discussion can be found at: 
    How to Make Throwing Bats
    https://www.vincepitelka.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/How-to-Make-Throwing-Bats.pdf    
    an alternate to hard bats try the flexible ones: 
    https://www.vincepitelka.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Throwing-on-Canvas-Bats-as-an-Alternative-to-Rigid-Bats.pdf   
    I use both kinds depending on why, what, where, and when the "bat" is needed. 
    LT
     
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