Revisiting the pugmill decision

[Pyewackette]

I was talking to my wheel instructor about pugmills and he tried to sell me on a Venco.  I can't remember what it was he didn't like about the Bailey, which is what they have at the studio.  I did look at the Venco, or tried to, but it is apparently NOT currently for sale in the US (at least not that I could find).

However I have come across Shimpo/Nidec puggers that look to be even easier to clean than the Bailey. Clay-King has them, I don't know if there is a dealer closer than that to Texas, but shipping IS "free", probably because Shimpo is offering free drop shipping at the moment.  The NV04S is fully stainless, de-airs, has twin augers that supposedly make it self-feeding and improve processing of hydrated reclaim (and maybe other advantages), comes with a roller table and cutter, roughly 1/2 HP motor.  It's on wheels so I'm guessing it doesn't need a worktable to mount it on. Clay King has it for $5852 shipped. 

NV07S is essentially the same (including price) except with a 1HP motor and a single auger.  You can put dry chunks of clay in and mix with water, NV04S can't handle that. 

They both appear to run off 120V which is too bad given I have a 20A 240V dedicated circuit in the garage LOL!  So I would probably have to have a dedicated circuit run for it when I get the wiring for the kiln installed.

NV 04S manual

NV 07S manual

I'm hoping to be able to put in a kiln by sometime this summer.  The pugmill isn't my first priority (there is still some electrical work aside from kiln wiring, plumbing, and odds and ends to be dealt with in the living space) but it IS on my list, and I hadn't seen Shimpo pugmills nor seen them discussed last time I looked into this, in July.

I want something easy to clean, the least work for me to run it, easy to operate.  I will be changing clay types relatively often, definitely between earthenware, stoneware, and red/colored vs "white" clays.  I'd like to keep my options open re porcelain - though I am unlikely to get any closer to it than B-mix for some time yet.

Does anybody have experience with the Shimpo pugmills? Compared to the Bailey A-400 Stainless steel de-airing pug mill at $4950 with the table for it (apparently Bailey doesn't carry any sort of roller thingy to handle the extruded pugs). 

 

[oldlady]

the venco pugmill was the one i bought when it became available in the US.  i used it until the bailey small one came out and sold it to a friend when i bought the bailey.   the only thing i can think that  your instructor would not like is the diameter of the pug.   the venco was a little bigger.   i love my bailey, but i would not like any pugmill if i planned to use several colors of clay.

having read one of the instruction books you mentioned, there is still no diameter of the pug that i can find.   the bailey does have a sliding metal bed for the pug to land on and i cut mine to fit into a 5 gallon bucket.   anything bigger would be too unwieldy so i would absolutely never use that roller table.   that looks like it would be used in a factory type operation.   the pug diameter looks very large for a one potter operation.  think about the weight of a pug that diameter and the length of that roller table.  UGH!

how much do you plan to pug at a time?   where do you plan to store the pugs until you use them?   how often will you use up those pugs and recycle the clay? and how often do you expect to change colors?  

[neilestrick]

If you're going to be using it for different types of clay, and handling reclaim, and spending that much money, I'd get a Peter Pugger or Bailey equivalent.

[Pyewackette]

@neilestrick It was my understanding that the Peter Puggers are really obnoxious to clean, is that not in fact the case?

@Callie Beller Diesel He liked the much higher vacuum of the Venco.  He has an engineering background LOL!  So do I for all that.  But they don't seem to be available here anymore. I think what he didn't like about the Bailey is that he thinks they are hard to clean, which is sort of the opposite of what I had heard about it.  I won't get a chance to talk to him about it in more detail until early next week.

The pugs are 3 and 3.5" in diameter.  Bailey is 2.75, so not that much difference.  I'd rather the larger pug personally, I've never really adjusted to the small size of the pugs out of the Bailey.  I mean I know you could adjust for length but they always seem too skinny to me.  I know they'll be a little heavier for the same length.  I don't have a problem handling the pugs after they're cut.

• I REALLY care about how easy they are to clean out and the Shimpo looks a lot easier to do that. It also matters whether the 04S is harder or easier to clean or the same as the 07S - with the double auger it looks like it might be harder, but video is lacking.  The only videos for the 04S that I've found so far are in Romanian or something.  Polish or Russian maybe.  Definitely not English.  I'll have to go see how the auto translate for closed captioning is working for that, I forgot to turn it on and see last night.
• I'm not sure whether or not I should care about being able to throw dry chunks and some water in to the 07S rather than the 04S. The engineer in me is impressed by the chewing ability of the mixer function on the 07S, but the old person in me is more impressed by the fact that the 04S is self-feeding.  I'm good with slaking reclaim, and honestly most of the attraction of a pugmill for me is the de-airing and the ability to put bagged clay through it.  I have become addicted to NOT wedging thanks to the de-aired clay at the studio.  I intend to continue in that vein LOL! 
• I can't really guess "how often" I would change clays since I don't know what the hopper capacity is for any of the 3 pugmills under discussion (or any other pugmill for that matter). I don't expect to have more than 2 or 3 types of clay available at a time.  I do expect to buy clay at least 500 lbs (per variety) at a time once I zone in on 3 or 4 types I like best. Red earthenware will definitely be in there, also at least one red cone 6 stoneware, a B-mix clone, and someday some porcelain. I am finding that I am going through more clay per session than I expected, eg I am throwing faster and more confidently and I expect that to continue for awhile yet before I hit my limits regarding that.  Once I have daily access to a wheel that will increase by several order of magnitude - I do not own a car so needing to borrow my son's limits my access to the public studio.  That basically means 2 or 3 times a week is usually all I can manage due to having to GET there LOL!  Currently ONE of those days is devoted to handbuilding but the wheel is my True Love.
• The 04S pugs out 440lbs per hour, 07S 720, Bailey A400 says "400 to 600" lbs per hour.  At its low end the Bailey would be equivalent to the 04S but at the high not that far behind the 07S.
• I expect to experiment with pug storage until I find what is easiest and most appropriate for me.  For one thing I need to SEE how much a load is to know what size container might be appropriate.  Whatever I put the pugs in after extrusion I would want it to be possible to get a wheeled dolly for it (or build one).
• I will get training on the studio pugmill before trying to run one in my home.
• If I couldn't find a roller tray for the Bailey I would have to build one so I consider that in cost whether of time or money. The Bailey at the studio (admittedly much larger than the one *I* would get) has a roller and it really does make it easier to handle IMO.

Thanks for your help.

[Min]

If your budget allows it I'ld have a look at the machines that can both mix and vacuum pug. With the mixer puggers you can dump dry, slurry, powdered, whatever condition of unfired clay into the mixing chamber then grind it all up and add water as needed then re mix and pug. I've got this one, pug diameter is 3 1/4".

If you position the pugger at the end of a table you can put a piece of fabric or foam under the end of the extrusion as it starts to come out then let it just feed itself across the table, I haven't found the need for a specialized roller table.

edit - It takes me about 2 hours to clean out my Bailey mixer/plugger. If you are going from a red to white clay it would be a bit longer to get it really clean. It’s not a fun job. 

Edited February 26, 2022 by Min

[Russ]

I have the smaller shimpo nra04. 4 bolts come out and the barrel comes off.  takes about 5-10 minutes max to clean it.

[Mark C.]

The Venco and the shimpo in my mind only pug clay-which is only part of whats needs doing in my mind

whatever machine one gets its needs to come apart to clean  out. Usually its 4 bolts

I would never buy just a pug mill-waste of money-as the newer machines mix and pug so making clay more or less firm is easy as well as reclaim or even starting with dry materials

Pug mills are outdated unless all you want to do is pug mixed clay say at the clay factory.

My peter puggers keeps clay moist for any amout of time. I would only clean it to change bodies and I have two of them with different clay bodies .

The Petter Pugger and the Bailey that mix and pug are the only way to go. 

Venco came out long ago and was one of the 1st mills on the scene for consumers. Parts are a bear to find-the Shimpo is another import so check on parts availability .

all machines need from 4 to 6 bolts off to come apart-My Peter has 4 bolts on the barrel

De airing is the only way to go these days with whatever machine you get

I no longer wedge -its been about 10 years ago I stopped after my wrist surgery

[Pyewackette]

@Min @Russ @Mark C.

All 3 pugmills (the Bailey and both Shimpos)  are full stainless de-airing pugmills.

The larger Shimpo, the 07, is a mixer pugmill.  The smaller Shimpo, the 04, is not.  I don't know about the Bailey, I can't find anything that says one way or the other.

The 04 has apparently undergone a recent upgrade, not sure what the difference is from the original model.

Partial teardown/cleaning of Bailey A-400

NV04S foreign language (Czech?) demo video

Peter Pugger

In the video on the 04, turns out they don't actually talk in it and the few captions have English translations.  Mostly one or another wistful looking young women languidly demonstrate the use of the pugmill.  When it comes to cleaning, it appears to amount to popping the nozzle off then releasing the bolts on the augur chamber, which then folds up like a clamshell to fully expose the twin augurs and the hopper. While I wouldn't claim a 5 minute clean-up job there, it sure LOOKS like its a lot simpler than either the Peter Pugger or the Bailey.  Both of those appear (from the associated videos) to be WAY more complicated to clean.  In fact I can see now why my engineer-come-potter friend says the Bailey is hard to clean, and I can understand why it takes Min 2 hours to get it apart and cleaned out.  The Peter Pugger doesn't look all that much better.  I know that's an "old" pugmill in the PP video, but it doesn't look substantially different from the new ones.

I did find a video of a Venco, which appears to de-air as a two step process - at least the guy using it put the clay through once just to pug it and then put it through a second time to de-air.  Also looks bad to clean, but its sort of moot given it is unobtanium at present here in the US.

I get the caveats about parts availability, especially since it would appear that this pugmill is a new introduction to the US.  At least I hadn't seen it before that I recall.

But as things stand - and realizing that I'm already going to be almost a year behind just getting my wheel setup and getting a kiln - at present it sure LOOKS like the Shimpo, one or the other, is my best bet for ease of cleaning.

I'm not sure whether or not I really need the mixing function of the larger 07 and the self-feeding (allegedly) of the 04 sure does look nice, but I'll talk to my engineery-potter friend next week about mixing and pugmills.  Last time we talked about it he was of the opinion that its a generally useless function, but I think he was approaching it from the point of view of people who think they can dispense with a mixer (and I was among that number before I figured it out, no it does NOT replace having a mixer).

Russ, as an owner of an 04, do you think its easier to keep your beast fed than other pugmills?  It still has a lever, but its a lot smaller and the girl in the video (not that you can trust an edited video) doesn't appear to put any particular strength into pressing the lever down.

Folks, how much is added to usability by being able to drop dry chunks in the larger machine, keeping in mind this is not a commercial enterprise and I'm just one little old lady.  I've never actually HAD dry chunks around since I recycle through a slop bucket.  The odd lost brick of dried out clay just got tossed in a bucket with water to rehydrate.  What do I not know that I might regret later?

Thanks for the input and advice.

Pye

 

[neilestrick]

12 hours ago, Pyewackette said:

It was my understanding that the Peter Puggers are really obnoxious to clean, is that not in fact the case?

IMO, all pugmills are a pain to clean.

In the big picture, I don't think that recycling is worth the time and money unless you're doing it on a fairly large scale. If you look at the value of the clay and your time, you're going to have to run A LOT of clay through that machine for it to pay off. Like years and years of clay. Personally, I'd rather spend my time making pots, not recycling clay. Say you go through 2,000 pounds of clay a year, which would be a lot of clay for most hobbyists, and trimmings make up 15% of that, you've got 300 pounds of clay to recycle each year. That's about $135 worth of clay that you're recovering. On a $5000 pugger it's going to take 37 years for the pugger to pay off. If you go through 5,000 pounds of clay per year, it's going to take about 15 years. Add in the value of your time and you're probably losing money on the deal. In the amount of time it would take for me to recycle 300 pounds of clay, I can throw a lot more than $135 worth of pots. Throw away your trimmings or donate them to someone who wants them, and spend your time making pots. IMO the only reason for a hobbyist to have a pugmill is if you need it for wedging purposes, as it will prevent a lot of wear and tear on your wrists. But for recycling I think it's a waste of time and money for most people.

[Russ]

12 hours ago, Pyewackette said:

Russ, as an owner of an 04, do you think its easier to keep your beast fed than other pugmills? 

Any easier? Dont know.  I formulate and mix my own clay and after its mixed its run thru the pugmill. It takes about 2hrs to run about 600lbs. Its fairly good about me feeding and not having to push the clay too hard down the hopper.

[Mark C.]

I'm with Neil on the whole expensive machine deal-I threw away my trimmings and slop for decades and the only reason I have the two Petter Puggers is for my wrists (after surgery)

I have 7k invested in them total as I bought each used. I need soft clay these days and do not wedge -these work well for that-I can soften clay if need be or Harden it for my press mold forms.

I have yet to clean either of them as there is no need to-the clay never dries out with the rubber cap on.

[Pyewackette]

@neilestrick @Mark C.

For me its not about recycling reclaim - I would do that ANYWAY.  I don't waste.

It's about not having to wedge.  I'm old and I have trouble with my shoulders AND my wrists (mostly shoulder and back issues).  I'd rather use up my physical reserves actually throwing than getting clay ready to be thrown.  I'm also cheap (believe it or not) and the ONLY reason to get a pugger for me is so I don't have to wedge.  It is the difference between throwing and not throwing. For that, I'll pay $5000.  Just to reclaim? Nope.

Thanks for the responses.

[Min]

15 minutes ago, Pyewackette said:

 

…and the ONLY reason to get a pugger for me is so I don't have to wedge.  It is the difference between throwing and not throwing. For that, I'll pay $5000.  

It’s very seldom that I wedge commercial pugged clay. Drop the bag of clay on all four sides to wake it up then cut off the weights I’m throwing and smack them into a rough ball on the table top and they are good to throw. I cone all the clay I throw.  If I’m throwing something large I’ll split the weight up into around 5 lb pieces and cone then center the first piece the smack the second piece onto the first one and repeat.

 

[Pyewackette]

@Min I've never NOT had to wedge bagged clay.  It's always either too hard or too soft or sits around long enough that its starting to become too hard.  I don't want to be wedging under ANY circumstances.  I indulge myself very infrequently - practically never - so grant me this one indulgence this time ...

But I am cheap enough that I want to maximize the bang for the buck, hence the question about the advantage of a mixing pugger over a non-mixer (04s vs 07s in this case, unless I change my mind again by the time pugmill-buying time actually rolls around)

[Mark C.]

So if its only about make clay softer or firmer and NOT wedging the peter pugger or any mixer pugger (like a Bailey) is your machine of choice-You can add water or dryer clay to wetter clay or dry material to Harden soft clay. In a pug mill you cannot change the clay mosisdture cintenr very easily as it moves thru the machine from point a (hopper ) to B the (end nozzle)

whereas a mixer pugger will aloow you to mix the clay in the 1st chamber to how you like it than discharge into a pugged log when you get it the way you like-no  straight (stand alone)  pug mill will allow this process.

I pout 6 tons thry a Bluebird pugmill so I know something about standard pug mills-

As I said mixer /pugger is the only way to go. You can get them used if you have time on your side.

[Pyewackette]

Actually, there is another reason I need to reclaim my clay.  Once I've got my wheel setup, I will be squashing nearly everything I throw in my quest for the Perfect Cylinder.  At every step I'll be throwing and squashing so I get a ton of practice. That's going to be a whole lotta clay to just throw out.

Right now since I have to schlep myself and all my stuff all the way across town to the studio, I tend NOT to squash nearly as much as I ought. Having gone to all the trouble of getting out there its tough to come back with nothing concrete (or bisque, at any rate) to show for it.  Plus its a class situation and I am at least somewhat susceptible to the blandishments of the instructor who of course wants his students to have something to keep at the end of class.

[GEP]

I have a pugger only, and I can control the moisture level of the clay by combining new bagged clay (which is often too hard for my liking) with reclaimed slop that I can dry to whatever softness I like. It’s a process that requires some daily attention (keeping an eye on my slop bucket) but once you get into a routine it’s easy to do. 

I’m with you about not wasting materials, even before we started having supply shortages in the past year. I reclaim about 600# of clay per year. Throwing away that much “free” clay seems unthinkable. And adding it to a landfill feels wrong. I am the type of person who puts my trash can on the curb every 4 or 5 weeks, because it’s really important to me to generate as little trash as possible. 

I have a Bluebird but it is definitely not designed for easy cleaning. I only use one clay body, so not an issue for me. But the company is great and the few times I have needed spare parts, it wasn’t a problem. This might not appeal to you, but would you consider limiting yourself to one main claybody? If you want to try others here and there, you can hand wedge on occasion. There is a lot of artistic growth that can happen when you make commitments like this, rather than always switching around with new materials and directions. Being able to work with clay is a huge reward all by itself. All of the different clay colors an temperatures are relatively unimportant. In my mind, the trade off between wedging and frequently cleaning a pugmill doesn’t seem like a gain. 

[Pyewackette]

@GEP I don't think cleaning a Shimpo/Nidec is anything like as difficult as any other pugmill.  Now that I've seen a video of someone cleaning out a Bailey (and only partially at that) I agree, that's an ordeal.  No wonder my Engineer clay friend doesn't like it!  I could swear I'd been told the Peter Pugger was worse to clean out and the Bailey was "easier" (than the PP) but it sure looks the other way 'round.

But the Shimpos have a clamshell cover over the augur and the nose cone comes off entirely.  @Russ says its a 5 minute cleanout, and it may be for him. (Hey, Russ, btw, how long have you had yours?) I'm pretty sure it would take me longer than that, but at least considerably less than the 2 hours @Min mentions for her Bailey.  2 hours for me to clean one of those would probably be extremely optimistic LOL!

I'm coming to this late in life, after decades trying to get here.  So no, I don't want to limit myself to one clay.  Were I younger and still up to wedging I might feel differently, but that's not where I am.  I love the red clays, I want to try some of the really delicate porcelain stuff, I want to burnish and that's earthenware.  I like the exposed clay bodies, which is why I don't much care for the "white" stoneware at the studio where I've been working.  Fired to bisque, its a sort of insipid pink with red spots - apparently it has a fair amount of iron for a "white" clay. Glazes tend to pinhole over it.  Due to the changing of the guard over there, there are problems with it anyway right now but they're dead out of the B-mix clone they usually have that I might have tried instead.  Anyway.  I've never cared for the white clays much.  Hsin Chuen Lin has inspired me to learn the porcelain, but I don't want to give up my lurvely lurvely reds.

Besides, I've been told I'm the cleanest potter anyone has ever met.  I would probably clean a pugmill between batches anyway.

So whatever time I've got left, I want to spend it doing what I want to do and if that means getting an expensive piece of equipment like a pugmill and cleaning it out once in awhile, that's what I'll do. I know 100% that cleaning it out once in awhile is going to beat the drudgery and physical stress of trying to wedge hundreds of pounds of clay. At least I have the wherewithal to manage it financially (though nothing extra LOL!).  I've had a windfall and I intend to spend it.  What the heck would I be saving it for at my age?  LOL!

I just hope that I don't find out something bad about the Shimpo's now that I've got all excited about them.  Like you can't get parts or they break down all the time.  Or the free shipping ends before I have space for one.  EEEK!

Thanks for your comments.

Pye

Edited March 1, 2022 by Pyewackette

[Pyewackette]

So sadly I AM finding out some less than stellar information about the Shimpo pugmills.

This guy hates his 07ss

This guy hates his 04ss

The second one sounds like learning curve issues, but the first is worrisome.  I don't find a whole lot about Shimpo pugmills out there (google is becoming more and more useless as they get hard core about sending you to commercial sites instead of informational links) - a handful of folks who have had one for years and seemed happy about it (generally these are blog posts that tend to be fairly old, like 6 or 7 years) and one offhand comment on Reddit (for what that's worth) about them being "crappy" with no further explanation.

The way they treated that guy with the corrosion in his stainless steel barrel makes me not only not want a Shimpo pugmill, it makes me not want to upgrade my Shimpo wheel to another Shimpo.  But, Russ has had the 04-not-ss for years (I found a post from 2013 so he's had it at least that long) and has been happy.  I am further investigating. I sure do like the clamshell design on the 04ss (Sadly lacking on the 07).

Peter Puggers claim to be true mixing pugmills, eg "mix clay from powder and water".  I'm assuming you have to dig it out and mix multiple batches before you can pug it all.  Has anybody actually mixed clay from dry to throwable in a Peter Pugger?

Edited March 1, 2022 by Pyewackette

[neilestrick]

29 minutes ago, Pyewackette said:

Peter Puggers claim to be true mixing pugmills, eg "mix clay from powder and water".  I'm assuming you have to dig it out and mix multiple batches before you can pug it all.  Has anybody actually mixed clay from dry to throwable in a Peter Pugger?

Yes, and it works great. In mixing mode the auger pushes the clay toward the back of the machine. Once it's all mixed, you turn on the vacuum, hit the switch for pugging, and the auger turns the other direction and pushes it out the nozzle. You don't have to dig it out.

[Pyewackette]

Will the pugger push it all out after mixing, or mostly, enough at any rate to mix another batch? or how would you mix multiple batches when it won't all fit in the hopper at once?

[Pyewackette]

I talked to the folks at Peter Pugger yesterday and what they say is, once you have mixed one batch, you can let it pug into the nose and then mix another batch.  You can just chain it until you're done mixing (I'm talking about mixing from dry).

I swear, multiple people (I thought) insisted the Bailey is easier to clean, but now that I've looked at them both in detail, that just can't be true.  Especially with Min's report of a 2 hour cleanout process.

What I found really helpful is that Peter Pugger has a cleaning breakdown for each model so you can SEE just exactly what comes apart when you have to clean.  You have to go to the individual model and there is actually a tab in the info section just for cleaning.

I was told that the mixing (from powder) capacity for each machine is roughly half the hopper size due to the way the volume changes once you wet it down - you can put roughly half the amount by weight of the dry in and that fills the chamber.  Once you add water it mixes down in volume.  So for mixing from powder

• 7SS -  14 lb hopper capacity = 350 lb/hour, 7 lb mixing = 100 lb/hour
• 9SS -  25 lb hopper capacity = 500 lb/hour, 13 lbs mixing = 150 lb/hour
• 20SS - 45 lb hopper capacity = 600 lb/hour, 23 lbs mixing = 180 lb/hour

Honestly even the 7SS seems like plenty for me.  If it takes me an hour to mix up 100 lbs, that doesn't seem like that much to me.  I just can't see ever meeting the potential capacity from the 20SS.  I can see a pretty big jump in output between the 7SS and the 9SS but the jump to the 20SS seems very small given the hopper capacity is nearly doubled. 

• 7SS - 1/2 HP motors for both pugging and vacuum 
• 9SS - 3/4 HP motor pugging, 1/2 HP vacuum
• 20SS - 1 HP motor pugging, 1/2 HP vacuum

Apparently 240V is an option on any of these and I'd probably go for that - I have a 20A 240V circuit (well actually it is marked 220V in the electrical box, and my HVAC is marked 230V on the units) in the garage that I can't imagine ever having another use for, and these draw 4A, 6A, and 8A respectively (pugging motors) on 220V.  I'm a bit short on 120V circuits out there, rather save that capacity for other things.

I'm not saying the 7SS is my best bet, but I don't see that the 20SS is a clear winner here, either.  Given the smaller motor and overall power available, I can see where the 7SS could be outgrown even by me (old decrepit neophyte that I am); but I don't see a clear advantage to going all the way to the 20SS either.

Right now I'm inclined to stick with the 9SS.  The only advantage for me that I see with the 20SS is that the nose cone and the hopper are 2 separate pieces which should make clean out easier - with the 9SS, that is one piece and even though it weighs about the same as the 20SS nose cone alone, with clay in them, the 9SS would weigh less - BUT I would have to horse it off there without banging it into the augur.  On the 20SS, the nose cone comes off separately and then you take the (empty) hopper section off for cleaning.  Of course I could always just rig a sling to help with removal.

I wish I could try one and see!  Anybody out there have the time to share your experience owning/using the smaller Peter Puggers?

Pye

 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Pyewackette

[Mark C.]

Not sure if you had read this fellow issues with the Shimpo pug mill

Did you see this poast last week

I own and use two peter puggers so I know your learning curve-the real issue is size of machine

That said they all do exactly the same thing and they do it well

The VPM 7s are just to darn small-the output that is

the VPM 9 also is pretty small

not the machine as much as the whole mixing chamber which get really small in thiose smaller units

All clay mixers and puggers hold larger volumes of clay that never make it out the barrel-in the nooks and crannies as you said. Folks new to this need to understand that 25#s in does not equal 25#s out more like 2/3 of that if you are lucky

That relationship is pretty constant My larger VPM 30 holds 85#s of clay when its 100% full and I'll be lucky to get 55#s out the other end.

same is true with my VPM-SS 20 45# capacity -and 30#s output

As you noted you need to add clay turn it on so the hopper clay is away from entry hole and add more etc until you cannot close the hopper almost so ikts jambed full 100% to get your maximum output. This process takes a bit of learning-its also harder with smaller amounts in those smaller machines . The VPM 7 is just to darn small.

This company makes a great product but after they sold all the larger units to schools and professionals they went for the hobby market and the VPM 9 was that go to unit. (I have full timer potter freiend with one of those) He said its output is way to small for him.

They should have stopped making any smaller machines at the VPM 9 instead they shrunk it down again to the VPM 7-That machine will only output 2/3 of whats in it-its max capacity is only 14#s so on a good day you get 2/3 of that 14#s of clay-just over 8#s

My advice as all the machines are  just within a 1000$ of each other ($4k-5K) is to get the larger machine the VPM 9 is the smallest machine in my view you should consider.

As noted in above pots you need to stuff that hopper full turn it on a second stuff it again and again until you can only force it closed and then its full to get your most output. This is less importaant in the larger machines VPM 20s and above as the outputs are just better amounts.

On needs to look at batch capacity in all Peter Puggers and realize outputs are 2/3 of that no matter what the size of machine

You are not the fist person who feels the 7 is to small and for justa few hundred more dollars one can get the VPM 9 which hold 25#s so you get 2/3 of that which is about 16#s

For me as a professional the VPM 20 is a s small as I would ever consider as it holds 45#s and you get 30#s

A standard box of clay is 50#sin two 25# pugs-so if your output is only 8#s well you get the point its just a small log of clay even for a hobbist

Here is the whole thread

 

 

[Mark C.]

I use the 20SS all the time-and the hopper size is the smallest I feel one wants. As you noted you can unbolt the sections and clean the screw as its exposed 360 degrees at that point

I feel this machine is the perfect size for most applications-I bought as 1 year old model used lightly for 4 k with stand

Keep in mind they are really heavy so the rolling stand is a must have unless you want to never move it (check the machine weights to see what I'm talking about)

Forget the 7SS for all my resaons  I posted in above post.

I also think the 9SS is also a bit on the small side with only outputing 13#s of clay so outpouuting 150#s an hour would be a tough  killer job.

My friend has this tiny machine and he felt burned about it. The local clay supplier recommended this size to him and he went with that suggestion.He had a falling out with them and this one one of the resasons. The 13# output is pretty small then you repeat the feeding cycle all over

I think a few on this board own the 9SS so maybe they can chine in about it?

[neilestrick]

I think the small Peter Puggers would only be good for recycling your daily (weekly?) trimmings, not for mixing fresh clay from dry powder.  10-15 pounds at a time seems like a real waste of time for making new clay. I would only do that in bigger batches. But for tossing in you trimmings and scraps and pugging out a few pounds every day or two it sounds lovely.