Revisiting the pugmill decision

[oldlady]

after hearing all this, i am glad i got the bailey 400.

[Pyewackette]

@Mark C. @neilestrick I totally agree, the 7SS is extremely small.  The output increase from that to the 9SS is more than worthwhile.  Even so, my main concern with the smaller machine is not so much the time - I've got plenty, especially for a relatively low-energy output endeavour during which I could spend the "downtime" burnishing something, the interruptions to re-feed the machine would just help keep my hands from cramping up - as it is the wear and tear on such a small machine if you actually DID keep it in constant operation.  That machine is really for the hobby hobbyist.  I've seen a video where the guy is using one of those and its doll-size.  To me its the equivalent of those little doll kilns people get to do glass beads or miniatures or whatever you can do with those eensy things.  And he was trying to process like 2000 lbs of backlogged reclaim through it.  I hope he got it super cheap (it was a used unit).

Part of the reason I was leaning towards the 9SS was I assumed it weighed significantly less than the 20SS but turns out THAT was wrong big time.  

• 9SS 256 lbs 36" long x 14" wide x 14" high
• 20SS 280 lbs 42" long x 14" wide x 20" high

Only 24 lbs difference!  The 20SS isn't THAT much bigger dimensionally either, which I guess goes a long way towards explaining the relatively small difference in output.  Again, I don't see you getting a huge performance difference between the 9SS and the 20SS, hopper chamber size aside.  The size of the hopper door is not insignificant - 5.5" square vs 7" square, which sounds like 1.5" big deal but do the math.  That's 30.25 sq inches vs 49 sq inches, actually the hopper door alone on the 20SS is almost 2/3 larger.  I mean that's not insignificant. But I'm not sure its all that pertinent to me personally.

I just don't see how I would ever work to capacity in the 20SS.  If I DO start mixing my own clay bodies - and that is an option I want to keep open - I wouldn't HAVE to mix up 500 pounds at a time.  Given I have to drive 5 and a half hours to the nearest place to get clay, Yeah, I was figuring on coming back with like half a ton at a time.  Actually whatever I could max the car I would be driving at, so I wouldn't have to make the trip so often.  Coming back with the same amount in dry clay ingredients would make the trip more efficient.

With bagged clay, it would sit around while I worked my way through it, hardening up and having to be repugged even if I DIDN'T need to pug it when fresh straight out of the bag.  With powder, I would be fine mixing up 50 or 100lbs and pugging it out and then not doing it again until I've worked my way through most of it.

I think when you look at it from the perspective of a professional, yeah, the 20SS is the smallest someone with any real throughput would want.

I do have aspirations of becoming a very good potter, but given my age and condition I am liable to always be a low to moderate output potter.  And I may not LIVE long enough to achieve my goal of becoming very good technically. I also suspect I'll use the pugger more often in the beginning when I am squashing most everything and will have a ton of reclaim. So ... for now at least, still leaning toward the 9SS.

Honestly I'm just trying to avoid creeping elegance.  You should see what I can do with kiln lust .  Neil knows.  I could spend myself into the poorhouse buying ever more shiny stufz.  And I DO want to save some money just in case I really DO show evidence of needing that Great Big Kiln (but for now I'm sticking with one of the 2.5 cft L&Ls until I prove to myself one way or another just how large a kiln I deserve LOL!).  And I'm going to want the Bailey version of advancer shelves in any kiln or kilns I end up with.  Need to hold back some moola there as well.

And you know in order to take advantage of that Great Big Kiln I would also need a heftier wheel (I have a Shimpo VL Lite, yeah, I should have gone with the Shimpo Whisper at a minimum but I was REALLY poor back then). I've been hauling that thing around for over 10 years now and its only been on once. Still in its original shipping box. I bet the belt is rotted out.  I hope it will still turn on. Turned out I was not up to schlepping 5 gallon buckets of water and slop around. I kept hoping I could get somewhere to set it up but it didn't happen.  I'll finally be able to use it here, if its still usable.   I've got a space for it and a utility sink and everything.  Now if I just have a usable wheel ...

 

[Piedmont Pottery]

I have using the Peter Pugger VPM-9 for many years, and for the majority of that time it has been adequate for my needs, mostly reclaiming scrap from production work, only rarely mixing from dry ingredients.  In the past three years after changing a major part of my operations to classes, prompted largely by Covid, the volume of scrap generated in the studio has grown tremendously.  While I wish I had a larger machine, I will happily keep using what I have and just add some more temporary storage containers for scrap and slop, mostly 30 gallon plastic trash cans.

[Pres]

On 3/1/2022 at 10:43 AM, neilestrick said:

Yes, and it works great. In mixing mode the auger pushes the clay toward the back of the machine. Once it's all mixed, you turn on the vacuum, hit the switch for pugging, and the auger turns the other direction and pushes it out the nozzle. You don't have to dig it out.

Used to use the old Walker in the same manner, reverse switch worked fine for hold mixing, but I hardly ever did that much. It was very handy when the clay had to have a little more chopping up before pushing it out the other end. Removing the cover over the long auger was a bit of a chore, but luckily I didn't have to do much cleaning out as I limited the clays in the classroom. It was also easy to keep damp in the Summer months when school was out. Wet towels in the hopper, sealed up the output end with the end cap and a damp wash cloth. First run of Fall was dry, but did not over work the machine. It is still running today! What a beast though.

 

best,

Pres

[Pyewackette]

4 hours ago, oldlady said:

after hearing all this, i am glad i got the bailey 400.

I can understand that compared to the Shimpo (as it turns out) - but would you prefer the Bailey to a comparable Peter Pugger too?

Edited March 2, 2022 by Pyewackette

[oldlady]

H yes!

[Pyewackette]

53 minutes ago, oldlady said:

H yes!

Awlrighty then!   

[fergusonjeff]

When I used my Peter Pugger 20ss for mixing dry clay I found that aiming for about 25# dry ingredients was about right for a batch.  just mix your dry ingredients well and then add with water until full.  It took a while to figure out how to avoid the spins, but not bad.  Pug out a batch and then add in the next 25# and go again.  I would usually let it sit a few days and then repug it to the specific moisture content I need.

[Clayme]

On 3/2/2022 at 5:37 PM, oldlady said:

H yes!

Would you be willing to share what you like about your Bailey? I'm leaning towards a Peter Pugger 20 SS, two potters near me have this or a bigger model. I don't know anyone around here, Seattle/Tacoma/Gig Harbor, where I can see a Bailey in action. Both people with Peters love them, one never cleans it out, the other takes 2 - 3 hours and uses porcelaineous. We are on the West Coast, so closer to Peter Pugger but I would get a Bailey, if I thought it fit my needs better. I'm still figuring out my needs, LOL. Also, someone takes their pugmill apart, lets the clay dry, then cleans, soaking the barrels in water. I'm wondering if pressure washing on the lowest setting would be okay to clean the barrels. Thanks!

Edited February 17, 2023 by Clayme

[Lucia Matos]

On 3/2/2022 at 10:00 AM, Pyewackette said:

I talked to the folks at Peter Pugger yesterday and what they say is, once you have mixed one batch, you can let it pug into the nose and then mix another batch.  You can just chain it until you're done mixing (I'm talking about mixing from dry).

I swear, multiple people (I thought) insisted the Bailey is easier to clean, but now that I've looked at them both in detail, that just can't be true.  Especially with Min's report of a 2 hour cleanout process.

What I found really helpful is that Peter Pugger has a cleaning breakdown for each model so you can SEE just exactly what comes apart when you have to clean.  You have to go to the individual model and there is actually a tab in the info section just for cleaning.

I was told that the mixing (from powder) capacity for each machine is roughly half the hopper size due to the way the volume changes once you wet it down - you can put roughly half the amount by weight of the dry in and that fills the chamber.  Once you add water it mixes down in volume.  So for mixing from powder

• 7SS -  14 lb hopper capacity = 350 lb/hour, 7 lb mixing = 100 lb/hour
• 9SS -  25 lb hopper capacity = 500 lb/hour, 13 lbs mixing = 150 lb/hour
• 20SS - 45 lb hopper capacity = 600 lb/hour, 23 lbs mixing = 180 lb/hour

Honestly even the 7SS seems like plenty for me.  If it takes me an hour to mix up 100 lbs, that doesn't seem like that much to me.  I just can't see ever meeting the potential capacity from the 20SS.  I can see a pretty big jump in output between the 7SS and the 9SS but the jump to the 20SS seems very small given the hopper capacity is nearly doubled. 

• 7SS - 1/2 HP motors for both pugging and vacuum 
• 9SS - 3/4 HP motor pugging, 1/2 HP vacuum
• 20SS - 1 HP motor pugging, 1/2 HP vacuum

Apparently 240V is an option on any of these and I'd probably go for that - I have a 20A 240V circuit (well actually it is marked 220V in the electrical box, and my HVAC is marked 230V on the units) in the garage that I can't imagine ever having another use for, and these draw 4A, 6A, and 8A respectively (pugging motors) on 220V.  I'm a bit short on 120V circuits out there, rather save that capacity for other things.

I'm not saying the 7SS is my best bet, but I don't see that the 20SS is a clear winner here, either.  Given the smaller motor and overall power available, I can see where the 7SS could be outgrown even by me (old decrepit neophyte that I am); but I don't see a clear advantage to going all the way to the 20SS either.

Right now I'm inclined to stick with the 9SS.  The only advantage for me that I see with the 20SS is that the nose cone and the hopper are 2 separate pieces which should make clean out easier - with the 9SS, that is one piece and even though it weighs about the same as the 20SS nose cone alone, with clay in them, the 9SS would weigh less - BUT I would have to horse it off there without banging it into the augur.  On the 20SS, the nose cone comes off separately and then you take the (empty) hopper section off for cleaning.  Of course I could always just rig a sling to help with removal.

I wish I could try one and see!  Anybody out there have the time to share your experience owning/using the smaller Peter Puggers?

Pye

 

Hi Pye,

Which pugmill did you decide to get? And how do you feel about it a year later? I have some wrists issues and want to be able to do this for hopefully many years, so I am considering buying a pugmill. Thank you!

Lucia

[Min]

2 hours ago, Lucia Matos said:

Hi Pye,

Which pugmill did you decide to get? And how do you feel about it a year later? I have some wrists issues and want to be able to do this for hopefully many years, so I am considering buying a pugmill. Thank you!

Lucia

@Lucia Matos, Pye hasn't been on the forum since April 04 so it might be best to send her a pm just in case she doesn't see your question. She will get an email letting her know about your pm and question. (just click on her name then the little envelope at the top of the page that comes up then follow the prompts)

[Lucia Matos]

On 5/4/2023 at 6:41 PM, Min said:

@Lucia Matos, Pye hasn't been on the forum since April 04 so it might be best to send her a pm just in case she doesn't see your question. She will get an email letting her know about your pm and question. (just click on her name then the little envelope at the top of the page that comes up then follow the prompts)

Thanks, Min!

[Mark C.]

I own two Peter puggers. They are easy to clean out. The smaller 20SS has 4 bolts on the nose cone (thats all you have to undo) that you can take off then the chamber is cleaned from above and the nose cone is easy to wipe outthe hole now  leads to the main chamber,the shaft runts down the center and is self supporting . You only need to do this to change clay bodies say different temp bodies or say stoneware to Porcelain. The clay stays soft when it seals up. I thing the Peter pugger is by far the easiest to clean time wise.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Mark C.