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Tyler Miller

The Dangers Of Advice Without Experience

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Pres    896

Heaven forbid that anything should happen to limit the participation of all in our forum. After all, this is a place to actually vet ideas. We as potters work in isolation, often far from another in the same field. To have a place to bat around ideas such as here is healthy for all of us, and those of us that know so little, we get to pick the brains of those that are experts in the field. I love it!

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Roberta12    135

I do appreciate what Tyler is saying.   I started clay in a community studio.   While I was given a good start there....questions were not encouraged and I found that misinformation was being thrown about.   I began doing my own research and reading and exploration and realized that I loved clay/glaze more and more because there was so much to learn about it!   But there seems to be a great deal of opinion not based in fact.   I haven't noticed that on this forum, but amongst gatherings of potters.   John Baymore, Pres, Neil, Marsha, Mea, Tyler, Big Lou, have been instrumental in strongly encouraging people who ask questions on this forum, to do more research.   Spend time reading.  Attend workshops.  Know your stuff.  That makes this forum stronger and makes us all better at our craft.  But questions are very important.   That is how we learn. Even when people have had different experiences with the same glaze/kiln/clay/etc.   It is important that we share.   Once again, Thank you to all who have weighed in!!   I learn from you all!

 

Roberta 

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Min    783

Perhaps critical thinking in regards to the interpretation of posts is the issue here. In Tyler’s original post he brought up an example of a previous member of this forum who had a penchant for cut and paste information that he then appeared to endorse, whether with personal experience or not. In his case he admitted to being more interested in the theoretical rather than practical applications of the info he was disseminating.

 

The intent of this forum as far as I see it is to share information, thoughts and experiences. In order to validate some opinions using credible sources for backing up ones argument is no different from listing citations in a thesis. In both situations, vetting sources is necessary.

 

We all benefit when the more experienced members help us along but the ideas and suggestions from all are most welcome with me.

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Babs    386

This is a healthy forum.

Questions asked from any level of practice are treated with the same regard. No put downs. The answers are given at the level of understanding of the questioned, where this is possible. And in a friendly supportive manner.

Let's keep it this way.

ideas and info. are just that , pick it up from the table or leave it there, no coercion, or ramming down the throat, your choice!

Writing longest and most often , in a dictatorial abusive manner to prove, "I'm the best" doesn't  make it here.

Lets keep it up.

Happy Easter when it comes.

Chocolate is good for you, trust me.

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Stephen    139

been working in this medium for going on 20 years (started right after Al Gore invented it) and in the beginning I think the average person was more inclined to believe too much of what was posted, viewing it like one did a book back in those days, than they are now. Although there are always gullible people, for the most part, I think people these days get it. 

 

Great rant though as we all need a reality check every once in a while on this subject. When you are new to anything you tend to listen to those who seem to know what they are talking about and without knowledge yourself it can be hard to discern BS or separate fact from theory.

 

and its great to know that chocolate is good for me, learn something new every day on this forum.

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Chris Campbell    1,088

Even when we don't mean to do it ... we do it.

Chocolate is good for you .... Misc. articles in papers which changes every few years.

Chocolate makes me hands hurt .... Statistically insignificant result of uncontrolled experiment. Real or fake chocolate?

Chocolate is bad for dogs ... Random and unattributed. Whose dog? How much chocolate?

And ... I have a friend, who has a friend who owns an avatar dog and she loves bacon fried chocolate.

Oops! Wrong again ... It's the owner that loves the chocolate! : - )

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Babs    386

But Baaaabs, chocolate makes my hands huuuurt!

 

 

Chocolate is good for you, trust me.

Chocolate is not good for dogs and dog avatars though.

 

 

Even when we don't mean to do it ... we do it.

Chocolate is good for you .... Misc. articles in papers which changes every few years.

Chocolate makes me hands hurt .... Statistically insignificant result of uncontrolled experiment. Real or fake chocolate?

Chocolate is bad for dogs ... Random and unattributed. Whose dog? How much chocolate?

And ... I have a friend, who has a friend who owns an avatar dog and she loves bacon fried chocolate.

Oops! Wrong again ... It's the owner that loves the chocolate! : - )

There is NEVER any gain, aside from weight, without pain.

So be tough and just eat the choc.

OR send it to ME!!

I will do the tests, for you!!

I will carry the load and do the suffering, as will my pooches

As a person with high cholesterol, AND scrawny to the bone, I take the risk on occasions. If sending choc this way, really dark, 99% choc, will do the trick everytime!.

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Wyndham    98

We might need to define "Shortcut" as either a better method based  on  validation and experience of a technique or a shortcut based on an  assumption.without validation.

The shortcut "leave to the expert" can be a two edged sword. My personal experience of experts on the issue of reduction methods for gas kilns leaves a wide path for many different methods and opinions , some good, some not so good.

Education comes at a cost, whether academic and/or sweat equity. It sometimes takes a long time and a lot of clay to find the shortcut.

Wyndham

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Babs    386

 

Chocolate is good for you, trust me.

Chocolate is not good for dogs and dog avatars though.

 

I show great discipline and application in my practice of restraint re. feeding dogs choc.  I  just have to eat it all myself, and explain fully why theyhave chicken treats and I have to have.. the choc. All but one is happy with this, Missy who is also the boss/trade unionist and manipulator of all humans.

But tough love is essential some times, even in the world away from clay.

Hate glazing today, a clumsy day, no shortcuts, anyone got advice on hands all thumbs days??

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I guess some of this also comes down to when do some people on the forum ask a question........before or after they have tried to find their own answers?

 

Some people seem to 'ask first' before looking up much of anything on Google, Wiki (ALWAYS a dubious source), the forum's Search, an .edu weblink or God-forbid, a book on the subject......

Others seem to have looked around for their own answers before asking a question to fill in or expand on some knowlege they already have.....

......and this can make a big difference to the information being sought and how a poster approaches an answer to that question

 

A real newbie to the sport may get something from a Wiki etc.  but most will not and it is valueless to them and the accumulated wisdom on this site to rehash vague or unsubstantiated information and guesses ......and sometimes some answers are completely innane.  

I have wondered sometimes if some people want to seem more knowlegable than they yet are to compete, or if they feel 'left out' if they don't say something.....either way I agree with Tyler that it can be at best useless or at worst dangerous to launch into advice without some substantiated experience. 

(My idea of substantiated = personal, real world experience or significant study into the issue and/or informed guesses from similar experience.)

 

Don't ever want to stop forum questions or answers but maybe think 'quality not quantity' before a reply. 

 

Irene

 

PS Babs, no chocolate, Orthodox Easter = real eggs coloured red!

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Stellaria    35

I often ask extra-simple questions just for that reason - I haven't a clue where to look to get an answer that I can even begin to trust. The answers I get guide my further searches.

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Marcia Selsor    1,301

I think that is why the moderators have started listing the most frequently asked questions. There are certain things that come up often. 

Dialogue on topics can develop into deeper aspects of subjects with many takes from many sources. There are so many ways to reach the same goal in ceramics...it is fun to see how many ways people can get there.

 

Marcia

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Babs    386

I think that is why the moderators have started listing the most frequently asked questions. There are certain things that come up often. 

Dialogue on topics can develop into deeper aspects of subjects with many takes from many sources. There are so many ways to reach the same goal in ceramics...it is fun to see how many ways people can get there.

 

Marcia

Long may it continue.

Classroom analogy, one kid knows all the answers and the rest sit dumb brains turned off not not offering their ideas , not participating, hope this does not happen here.

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Pres    896

And. . . if something really hits you as relevant, hit the like button for the poster!

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JBaymore    1,432

There are lots of devices for temperature measurement that most potters don't know about. Many are a bit handy is certain situations. Search "temperature measurement".

 

best,

 

.....................john

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Benzine    610

Ben, a thermite sword would be a terrifying sight!

 

I agree, terrifyingly awesome!

 

I think Jed's provided us with an excellent object lesson as to how word of mouth stories, without critical input, can be a dangerous thing--the very point of my original post. You see, all three of these anecdotes about the success of the untrained are, in fact, false in their most common form

I agree, in regards to some a couple of the stories mentioned, but in the case of the Columbus one, it's hard not to propagate such stories, when those exact stories, are what we are taught from a young age. And said story is just the beginning. There is a lot, that we were taught in school, that has since been proven incorrect. And the sad fact is, we really don't have the time to check all of it, to see if the theory has changed.

I realize this is a bit different, than some of the stories, you initially mentioned, regarding the application of of dangerous tools and processes. In such cases, I fully agree.

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alabama    144

Hey,

 

    I try to apply my experience to the answers I give on this forum or add to what is already given.  As for the Titanium burning, I saw it coming. ;>)

The fire departments taught us in the 1970s that any metal with "ium" at the end supplys its own oxygen and should be smothered with foam, not water.

We were having to deal with burning aluminum engine blocks in VWs.

The Hindenburg air ship had a fresh coating of aluminium oxide before catching fire in NJ.

 

     Chocolate for dogs - I was always warned not to give chocolate to dogs but several years ago on TV a guest was saying not to give them the dark

chocolate and that Milk Chocolate was more appropriate in small amounts.  I'd give my dogs more milk chocolate than I do, only if I saw a hint of them enjoying the creamy milk fat, sugar, and hint of chocolate.  There seems to be no savoring involved, just a gulp, and not even a smile.

 

    More advice concerning experience, don't blow in the face of a rattlesnake crossing the road.  It DOES NOT make them move faster.  It makes them cranky,

and brings out their dark side.

 

    Good luck learning from experience.

I try daily.

Alabama

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Pres    896

I think that is why the moderators have started listing the most frequently asked questions. There are certain things that come up often. 

Dialogue on topics can develop into deeper aspects of subjects with many takes from many sources. There are so many ways to reach the same goal in ceramics...it is fun to see how many ways people can get there.

 

Marcia

I think the FAQ idea came originally from a need to set up general procedures to use the forum. However, in the interim John Baymore set up a FAQ area to make certain searches for information quicker in the Clay and Glaze Tech area. How many of you have used the search button in the forums? Then as John had , I did it with In the Studio. I will update the FAQ as I see a need, but hopefully it has created a service that others of you have found of use.

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jrgpots    231

For what it is worth...There is another active thread on the forum about dry skin caused by clay, glaze, etc. Biglou made an interesting observation. There are M.D.s on the forum, yet none have given their advise about ecczema, psoriasis, or contact dermatitis therapies as they relate to ceramics.

 

I am a praticing M.D. who treats these condition on a regular basis. Before I could diagnose I would need to gather a better history, view the lesions and review med usage, etc. The forum may not be the best place to do this.

 

BUT, It is a great place to take a history of ceramic problems, view pictures of the problem areas, review glaze usage and application, and diagnose/discuss remedies to the problems.

 

I appeciate and thank the "Clay Doctors" of this forum for sharing wthout restraint.

 

Jed

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