Pottery Wheel Advice/suggestion

[Jose]

Hi everyone, i've been researching buying a wheel and I've searched & read the forum on buying a wheel. I have a background in ceramics, but haven't been active in over a decade. My options are Shimpo VL Lite, Speedball ClayBoss, & Pacifica GT400... all within the $1k entry level budget. I am leaning towards the Shimpo b/c I was never able to throw more than 25 lbs in college and that was challenging; I mean, that's a lot of clay... to me at least. 

I'm building my own wood kiln, and it will not be very large. The chamber might be 18"x18"x24" tall or 8 cubic feet at most! This means the wares are not going to be very large, which is another reason why I' leaning towards the Shimpo. If a larger piece was needed, I would throw/build in sections. I'm researching kiln design/build and will document this journey. 

Anyone has experience with the Shimpo VL Lite? Any slowdown issues? I know centering max is 25lbs, but how much can it handle if a pot is thrown in sections... can it even handle that?

If anyone has experience (positive or negative) with any of these wheels pls, I'd appreciate any feedback. What about customer service and warranties... any experience here?

I just noticed that I can get a ClayBoss for $100 more... is the boss an upgrade?

Full disclosure: I'm on sabbatical and have nothing to do except focus on pottery. I could push my budget to around $1500, opening up more options, but I just do this for enjoyment and learning. I don't intend on selling my work and want to get what's right for my needs. 

Blessing to you and your loved ones. Thank you.

[Megga]

I've been researching as well, wanting to add a wheel to my 'fleet' for students, but also to use myself and take some of the load off of my main wheel. Here are some things I've learned:

-The Big Boss might have the power that you're looking for. 10 year warranty, I believe.

-Called Laguna on Monday to ask some questions. I was concerned because I'd read some bad reviews on the Pacifica foot pedals. I happened to ask what was covered by the warranty, and the guy told me they had just decided to lower their warranty, he thought to 3 years. Gee, now why would they do that? Huge red flag on quality. But, it still says 5 years on their website, so maybe double check that.

-I have 3 Shimpo VL-Lites that I use for student lessons. They're smooth and fairly quiet, but when they say lite they mean light. Weighing in at 51 pounds, they literally shake around a bit too much for my liking. I centered 12 lbs on one once, but while the clay was off-center it moved the whole wheel around. They're not as sturdy as a heavier wheel. 

I have a Bailey ST-X which I love, and Bailey has a 10 year warranty. But I ended up raising my budget enough for a Shimpo VL-Whisper. They're super popular, and I was slow to jump on the bandwagon, but I look forward to seeing/hearing what all the fuss is about. 

Hope that helps.

 

Edited May 8, 2022 by happy_pots
Corrections

[Jose]

Happy_pots, thank you for your feedback. Wow lowering length of warranty to 3 yrs... Yeah, that's a pass. I've gotten good feedback on both Shimpo. The only negative I've heard about the VL Lite is its weight capacity. I haven't heard about the whisper being a thing. What are people raving about?

Honestly, for the price point, I've heard nothing but good things about the Whisper. My wife just tells me to get the best wheel, but the practical/moderate/... umm... frugal me says, buy the one that meets the need. If the VL Lite can handle 20 lbs I'd be happy. Thank you for your time and input.

[shawnhar]

No way the VL lite can do 20lbs,  you would be lucky to do 10. I can stop it with 5. The Wisper is WAAAAAY better, but even it would probably struggle with 20lbs. You want to use large amounts of clay go with a Skutt. 

[Mark C.]

The better wheels which will not slow down with pressure are Skutts and Brents and Baileys. Better warranty  as well. These wheels last though the test of time

Brents are my wheel of choice -10 year warranty 

Pacificas are slowly getting better with better materials now (no longer have say flakeboard uder the plastic deck) they now use that Bat material which is morte waterproof .

[Pyewackette]

I've thrown 10 to 12 lbs on the VL-Lite without slowing it down. That is close to its limit though. Its a good wheel as long as you are good with its lower capacity - and lots of people will never throw more than 10 lbs of clay at once. As for "stopping" it, what you CAN do and what is likely to happen in normal use are not related.  Frankly I've never TRIED to stop it, but it hasn't stopped or bogged down under normal use for me in the past.  I actually did work on it for several months (I think I once hyperbollically said "only used it once" which was a gross understatement from before I started getting treatment for adrenal insufficiency and came out of the fog bank).  However the OP from the sound of it would be disappointed with that wheel fairly soon so - not recommended for someone who is asking if he can throw 20 to 40 lbs of clay.

In the under $1500 price range none of the wheels from Soldner or Bailey have more than 1/4 HP motors.  I don't know if they're belt, direct, or cone drive. The Soldner 50 only has a 1/6 HP motor.

In the under $1500 price range the Shimpo Whisper is the only wheel rated for more than 50 lbs.  No wheel will operate at the rated "centering" capacity.  As a good guess for the actual operating capacity of any wheel, take the centering capacity and halve it.  So all the under $1500 wheels currently listed at Baileys will top out around 25 lbs, the Shimpo Whisper at around 50 lbs (its the only one rated at 100 lbs "centering" capacity instead of 50 lbs for all the others).  I doubt the ability of the Soldner 50 to actually handle 25 lbs with that 1/6HP motor it has.

The studio where I work replaced ALL their Brents with all Shimpo Whispers.  There are artists who throw quite large pots on those wheels.  In discussion with the best of their teachers - and he is very very good - he was more than satisfied with the Shimpo Whispers, one (but not the only) consideration being that they are, in fact, whisper quiet and make it way easier to actually teach in a room with 15 wheels running at once.  I asked him about the "stoppage" issue and he showed me that yes, he COULD "stop" the wheel, but it was by doing it in a way that you would never be using when throwing normally.  No, it won't handle 100 lbs throwing,  yes, it will handle around half of that - but there are very few people throwing that much clay at once.    You may get a little more or less than that depending on the consistency of the clay body. Stiff clay, a bit less (I shudder to imagine trying to throw a 50 lb lump of stiff clay), softer clay, you may eke out a bit more.

I should ask him again next I see him to get a bit more detailed discussion.  It's been almost a year since I talked to him about it last.

@Jose - I like the VL-Lite for what it is and what it is is a solid but LIGHTWEIGHT wheel for throwing SMALL amounts of clay.  It will handle 10 lbs.  It may handle 12 to 15 lbs, depending on the clay.  IT WILL ABSOULUTELY NOT handle 20 lbs. Sorry!  It just doesn't weigh enough in and of itself for one thing, even if you could get the proper sort of power out of the motor and drive.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Pyewackette

[neilestrick]

1 hour ago, Pyewackette said:

The Soldner 50 only has a 1/6 HP motor.

Soldner wheels have small motors but lots of power. Something to do with the pedal design. They are very smooth, very nice to throw on. By far the smoothest wheels I've ever used. Pricey, though.

I'm a big fan of Skutt wheels. Lots of power in even the 1/3hp wheels, and the big splash pan keeps the studio much, much cleaner than wheels with small pans.

[Pyewackette]

3 hours ago, neilestrick said:

Soldner wheels have small motors but lots of power. Something to do with the pedal design. They are very smooth, very nice to throw on. By far the smoothest wheels I've ever used. Pricey, though.

I'm a big fan of Skutt wheels. Lots of power in even the 1/3hp wheels, and the big splash pan keeps the studio much, much cleaner than wheels with small pans.

Skutt is what used to be Thomas Stuart, right?  Those are the ones I lust after.  But $2000 - $2500 is a bit much for me.  If I outgrow the studio Whispers, maybe then I could justify going that high.  But until then I'll just throw small stuff at home on my VL-Lite and bigger stuff at the studio on a Whisper.

Btw Skutt/Stuart does make a Prodigy model which is NOT REVERSIBLE which makes that absolutely out in my book just for that reason alone.  I throw backwards.  All attempts to rejoin the herd on this issue have been utter failures.  I just throw backwards.  Besides which I can't see spending almost $1400 on a wheel that lacks a simple reversal switch anyway.  Plus they state the "throwing" limit is 75 lbs.  They do say throwing instead of centering but I'm not sure you can really throw 75 lbs on that wheel, the motor's not that big (1/4? 1/3 HP?).

But that model aside, I do lust after one or another of the wheels formerly known as Thomas Stuart.  I like the SSX drive. I like the EW Cuphead system (HYDROBATS FOREVER!).  I like the big splash pans and the removable wheel head (I think you can do that on a Soldner as well, one of the better Soldners would be a good wheel too, I'm pretty sure it's Tim See who has one and loves it to death)

But if I were going to buy a new wheel, now, today, it would be a Shimpo Whisper.  Honestly, at my age, recent health improvements notwithstanding, I doubt I'm likely to outgrow that wheel or even push its upper limits.  I guess only time will tell.

EDIT:  Actually, now I may be lusting after a Soldner.  Smoooooth sounds good too.  And you can still make custom hydrobats with that plaster bat making system, the name of which of course escapes me right at the moment.  And Tim See's Soldner video seems to demonstrate quietness, which is a  big plus for me ... plus no proprietary parts ... maybe I would get a Soldner S100 if I were buying today ... SO FICKLE, me!

Edited May 5, 2022 by Pyewackette

[neilestrick]

1 hour ago, Pyewackette said:

Plus they state the "throwing" limit is 75 lbs.  They do say throwing instead of centering but I'm not sure you can really throw 75 lbs on that wheel, the motor's not that big (1/4? 1/3 HP?).

Yes, Skutt used to be Thomas Stuart. The Prodigy is their budget model, lacking in several features like the large splash pan and reversing. However, if you always throw in reverse, you can just switch the leads on the motor. But I don't think it's worth buying a Skutt without getting the big splash pan. Skutt 1/3hp models can handle what most 1hp wheels can handle. They have a ton of torque, and their motors are much larger in physical size than most wheels. I've got 10 of the 1/3hp models, and I've never bogged them down, even centering 25 pounds and working on 50 pound planters. They have better speed control than Brent wheels IMO, and 6 different controller adjustments to dial in how you want the wheel to feel.

[Jose]

Hey everyone,

first and foremost, thank you. Thank you for your input, and thank you for your time! @Pyewackette again, thank you for your thorough feedback. I don't think you're fickle... it's just wanting something better. Wow, I really did learn a lot from this thread, and it sounds like Skutts and Soldners are great machines. Shimpos seem great as well. I genuinely haven't heard anything negative about them. And yes, what you CAN FORCE a wheel to do vs what it's designed to do in normal operations are different things.

Pyewackette, I agree with what you said about the VL-Lite; People have to know what its potential and limitations are, and be comfortable with them. I think i have an idea about who their target audience was for that wheel. Yes, the Whisper along many other wheels, is an upgrade no doubt about it, but after genuinely considering my needs and limitations, the VL-Lite might really be it. First of all, I'll be limited by the size of my kiln! I don't own the land, so I can't build one with a large chamber. The stack can't be more than 7 feet, meaning the chamber will be 2 feet or so? Also, if i managed to build a larger kiln and needed bigger wares, I'd just use my kickwheel (Korean). Weird, but I prefer coil-throwing large pots. 

For future forum members who might be looking at how much can be thrown on the VL-Lite; I'm in contact w/ a potter who claims to regularly center and throw 18lbs on it. However, he has been throwing for 6 yrs and more importantly, he learned and developed on a kickwheel. He claims this made him a sensitive/non-aggressive thrower b/c... well It's pretty obvious... kickwheels spin slower and lose momentum with pressure. I researched this and sure enough it's generally true. I myself learned and developed on a Lockerbie in HS. Since then, I've noticed that many potters who learned on an electric wheel center at high speeds and use lots of pressure b/c the machine can handle it. (Can anyone second this? From observation or personal experience?) Anyways, all this to say, yeah, it sounds like the VL-Lite can handle 15 lbs, and anything above that will require good hands and experience.  Biggest lesson i've learned from all this is, with regard to the Shimpo VL-Lite, know it's purpose & limitations; and more importantly, know your needs. Really, think about your current and future needs and stay within your means. Hope this helps anyone looking at the VL-Lite or other wheels for that matter.

Everyone, thank you. It's a big purchase, so thank you all again for helping me process. I'm curious to hear from y'all about soft & hard/aggressive throwers. Which one are you? Also, I'd love to hear about plaster bat and molds? I'll research plaster bats, but would love to hear about them.

Blessings to you and your loved ones. Thank you.

 

[Pyewackette]

@Jose Keep in mind, if you are thinking plaster bats, that is going to reduce the amount of clay you can throw.  I STRONGLY suggest you go with the Whisper, not the VL-Lite.  I only bought my VL-Lite because at the time I didn't know the roughly-half rule of thumb and thought it really would handle 25 lbs. 

Plaster bats are heavy.  You're going to reduce the amount of clay you can throw by probably about a third, or close to it.  So you're looking at maybe 8 to 10 or at most 12 lbs tops, and probably not tops, what with the weight of the bat. You would be pushing that wheel to its utter limits ALL THE TIME.  The upgrade to the Whisper is WELL worth it, really.

A 2' square chamber ain't nuthin'.  You can get pretty big pieces in there. I really do like my VL-Lite and respect it for what it can do but mostly what it can do is mugs and small to medium size bowls.  Don't limit yourself to the capabilities of that wheel.  If your situation changes, the Whisper will let you stretch more and its just a better drive (direct drive instead of belt drive). And if it doesn't - you've still got a better wheel that you don't have to baby.

TL;DNR synopsis : Still recommending the Whisper for you; Recommending Pure & Simple bat molds and Hydrostone-not-Hydrocal-not-#1-potters-plaster for bats; recommending Hardiebacker-Tile-Backer-Board-not-Siding-not-Durock for ware boards.

As for plaster bats, I'm a fan.  Of Hydrostone.  It is harder than the #1 potter's plaster for one thing.  It is less prone to chip or flake or any of the other bad things plaster pottery stuff can do over time.  It's lighter weight.  Stronger AND lighter weight, always a good combination in my opinion, LOL!  I kind of wish that for myself in fact.

Also just to be sure - that is HydroSTONE not HydroCAL.  The Hydrocal is a lot softer and not suitable for these purposes. I'm pretty sure its not even as hard as #1 potter's plaster.  So STONE not CAL. 

I had some Hydrobats years ago and I loved them.  Stuff pops off lickety split. I'm afraid they've been lost in one of my many moves since then - I haven't come across them again yet (still unpacking from my last move which occurred under emergency circumstances). But you can buy molds from Pure & Simple and make your own, which is my plan when I can make a clay buying trip (clay and Hydrostone buying trip I guess). I really like that keying system.  Fumbling around trying to find the bat pins - really annoying. 

I like hardiebacker for ware boards because they are thinner, lighter weight, and schleppable, as opposed to any sort of plaster.  The one thing they don't do as well if you treat them just like plaster is drying your slops - they're too thin.  A half-inch (really .42") piece of hardiebacker board doesn't have near the mass of a 3" thick slab of plaster, so I used to dry my slops in strips, otherwise it wouldn't dewater in the middle as fast as the edges. 

Recently someone on the list (maybe @Callie Beller Diesel or @Min ?) described slapping their slops onto cloth over wire shelves by the handful - which is probably how I'll treat stuff from now on when I have slops to dewater on Hardiebacker.  I don't think I want to give the stuff up in favor of a much heavier plaster slab for that purpose, and I am pretty sure layering it won't have the same effect (to get it thicker) as something that's 3" thick and of a piece.  But dewatering in strips worked pretty well so I bet dewatering by the handful ought to work even better.  That is the Hardiebacker board for putting under tile, not the siding, and not any other tile backer like Durock or something.  They are just cement with some fiber in them and they're crumbly and fragile. The Hardiebacker is a pain to cut - basically you either score and snap, which I found difficult, or use something like an angle grinder with a masonry blade and wear GOOD DUST PROTECTION, but my preferred method (as soon as I an find my good DeWalt drill that's powerful enough to drive it) are these shears (PacTool Snapper Shears for cutting fiber cement) specifically for cutting it.  No dust that way and more even edges than any other method I've used.

Ware boards, unlike a dewatering slab, don't need to be thick.  You could probably get by with the smaller .25" (really .25") hardiebacker but the price difference isn't enough for me to have bothered, I just use the half inch (really 0.42") for everything.  I've been using it at the studio where they lost nearly all their ware boards in the changing of the guard.  Prior to that I was having to dry stuff on PLASTIC (not plaster like I wrote first) bats and that was a big fat fail.  Then the clay has changed and its a lot wetter, not so much short anymore.  I've had better luck drying on my hardiebacker ware boards but still some weirdness which I have determined is due to some people coming in and leaving the door open.  The drying racks are right next to the door and the wind (we get a lot of that here) was just sucking the moisture right out of the clay right through the plastic bags it seemed.  But we're in to cooling season now (it was 95F yesterday) so hopefully that has stopped.  But I'm pretty sure the last bowl I put in the kiln has, or will, come out with a crack in the bottom because it was subjected to the Great Outdoors that way.

At any rate I've been using hardiebacker for ware boards pretty frequently (even if we don't include that huge gap between now and the last time I could work regularly) and I love them. I couldn't say whether stuff dries more evenly on hardiebacker or hydrostone but the hardiebacker takes up less space and weighs less.  But I will make wet and dry boxes with the Hydrostone when I get things whipped in to shape around here and post clay-and-Hydrostone-buying trip.

Edited May 7, 2022 by Pyewackette
PLASTIC!!!

[Marie-Michelle]

On 5/5/2022 at 6:20 PM, Pyewackette said:

Skutt is what used to be Thomas Stuart, right?  Those are the ones I lust after.  But $2000 - $2500 is a bit much for me.  If I outgrow the studio Whispers, maybe then I could justify going that high.  But until then I'll just throw small stuff at home on my VL-Lite and bigger stuff at the studio on a Whisper.

Btw Skutt/Stuart does make a Prodigy model which is NOT REVERSIBLE which makes that absolutely out in my book just for that reason alone.  I throw backwards.  All attempts to rejoin the herd on this issue have been utter failures.  I just throw backwards.  Besides which I can't see spending almost $1400 on a wheel that lacks a simple reversal switch anyway.  Plus they state the "throwing" limit is 75 lbs.  They do say throwing instead of centering but I'm not sure you can really throw 75 lbs on that wheel, the motor's not that big (1/4? 1/3 HP?).

But that model aside, I do lust after one or another of the wheels formerly known as Thomas Stuart.  I like the SSX drive. I like the EW Cuphead system (HYDROBATS FOREVER!).  I like the big splash pans and the removable wheel head (I think you can do that on a Soldner as well, one of the better Soldners would be a good wheel too, I'm pretty sure it's Tim See who has one and loves it to death)

But if I were going to buy a new wheel, now, today, it would be a Shimpo Whisper.  Honestly, at my age, recent health improvements notwithstanding, I doubt I'm likely to outgrow that wheel or even push its upper limits.  I guess only time will tell.

EDIT:  Actually, now I may be lusting after a Soldner.  Smoooooth sounds good too.  And you can still make custom hydrobats with that plaster bat making system, the name of which of course escapes me right at the moment.  And Tim See's Soldner video seems to demonstrate quietness, which is a  big plus for me ... plus no proprietary parts ... maybe I would get a Soldner S100 if I were buying today ... SO FICKLE, me!

hi! I've been wondering if I could use the hydro-bats with my cuphead wheel. What size do you use? The cuphead is about 10" wide but the hydro-bats are 10" inside pins so I'm not sure it would fit.

 

Thanks!

[Hulk]

Hi Marie-Michelle,

Welcome to the Forum!

Sorry there's no reply to your inquiry just yet.
Please feel free to post a new thread, and include any particulars, measurements, and images (if possible).

I've not used a cup head; how are the bats attached?

When I use plaster bats, I stick them to a clay pad.
I've seen where potters throw their clay pad on the wheel head.
I also use composite, plastic, and powder bats, hence I have bat pins, so I throw my clay pad on a plastic bat, then the bat pins don't need to be moved, and I can switch back and forth easily.

The link that Pye included in the post before yours - Pure & Simple offers a ten inch bat mold.
If your cup head does not have pins, my guess would be that plaster bats without any holes in them would be handier to use?

[Pres]

@Hulk,cup heads take a special bat that has an area underneath that sets into the cup. I learned to throw on an old Randall powered kick wheel that used cup heads. They were pretty handy, but at the same time you have to have a lot of bats!

@Marie-Michelle, years ago when I started out, I bought a used Amaco powered kick wheel. What I figured I could afford. At the time I did not realize the compromises that made.  10 Years later I decided to bite the bullet, and bought a new wheel, a Brent CXC. In an instant I realized my mistake, I was outputting twice the amount of pottery as before in the same time frame. Point being, buy the wheel for your lifetime, they can always be repaired, but realize that frustration with a wheel that just doesn't meet your style even though the price is right at the time does not work.

 

best,

Pres

[Callie Beller Diesel]

Skutt has a video here on making cup head bats. https://skutt.com/pottery-wheels/pottery-wheel-accessories/the-cuphead-system/

The principle is similar to the keyed bats that Pye linked to, just a different shape. It looks like the keyed ones are adapted to a standard wheel head instead of a cup. 

[Marie-Michelle]

I did the rookie mistake of buying a used kickwheel with a cuphead without noticing it. The head doesn't seem to be changeable so I have to deal with this, for now. Since there is a smaller part under the hydro-bat, I thought that maybe they could fit. But I'd love to know if it's possible before buying some. I could buy the mold to make the bats but I find them to be very expensive and I haven't found any used ones.