neilestrick

Hi Neil, the bricks are 2.5" thick, there is no other relays, only the safety switch for the lid. I'll shoot Paragon an email. will post up anything I get back so it helps anyone else in the future. Its very close to the TNF233 but as you say theholes are punched rather than louvers in the terminal cover. 
 
Thanks David, Thats really interesting as I have another kiln that is 35amp and rated for a 40amp circuit, I'm not sure how thr rules differ in Australia though. I'll quiz my electrician. We tested amperage on that Kiln and was pulling around the 34.5amp mark when cycling on. 

There's certainly a lot about it that looks like Paragon, but also a lot that doesn't. The inside of the control box looks very Paragon. could be they made it to someone else's specs. 
For comparison, the L&L and Skutt kilns of that size pull 48 amps and are rated to cone 10. They are a bit overpowered, though, because the 27" tall version also pulls 48 amps and is rated to cone 10. The Paragon TNF233, which this kiln may very well be, is rated to cone 10 at 40 amps. I would definitely contact Paragon and see what they think. 
You have solid state relays. Are there any mechanical relays in there, too, that function as safety relays?
Are your bricks 2.5" thick or 3" thick? That will affect the peak temp as well.

Well I got a quote for running more electric out to the studio for an electric kiln as well as a quote for a concrete pad, constructing a simple kiln shed, and having a large propane tank installed for the gas kiln...  Starting to lean toward electric now holy cow 

Does it have a Kiln Sitter?
Start with the lid propped open an inch or two.
1. Bottom switch on. Wait 1 hour.
2. Second from bottom switch on. Wait 1 hour.
3. Close lid. Wait 1 hour.
4. Next switch on. Wait 1 hour.
5. Top switch on. If it has a Kiln Sitter, wait for the cone to bend the kiln shuts off. If it doesn't have a Sitter, you'll have to put cones in the kiln and watch through the peephole for them to bend.

The bricks look similar to Paragon, but a lot of kilns are made that way. Without seeing them in person I couldn't say if that blue kiln is a Paragon or not. What type of connectors does it use for the element feeder wires? The control box does not look like a Paragon to me because the vent holes are not the same. Paragon uses louvers, not holes, and a different color blue. Paragon elements may fit it, but they may not. Can you post a picture of the bricks where the elements transition from one row to the next?

Does it have a Kiln Sitter?
Start with the lid propped open an inch or two.
1. Bottom switch on. Wait 1 hour.
2. Second from bottom switch on. Wait 1 hour.
3. Close lid. Wait 1 hour.
4. Next switch on. Wait 1 hour.
5. Top switch on. If it has a Kiln Sitter, wait for the cone to bend the kiln shuts off. If it doesn't have a Sitter, you'll have to put cones in the kiln and watch through the peephole for them to bend.

Another way to get some great colors is to use salt. Soak wood chips in a saturated salt water, let them dry, then use them in the saggar. It can give great red, yellow, and orange colors.

As I mentioned in your other thread, cone 10 in a gas kiln is not the same as cone 10 in an electric kiln. It's about atmosphere, not temperature. There is no difference between cone 6 electric and cone 10 gas in terms of durability or quality of work. There are a small handful of glaze types that require a reduction atmosphere for them to work, and therefore need a gas kiln, but other than that you can do just as much in an electric kiln. Cone 6 has the benefit of more stability with colors, and a lot more options with commercially available glazes.  If you really like shino and tenmoku glazes, you need cone 10 reduction. They will not work in an electric kiln. If you don't have experience in firing a gas kiln, it's going to be a long hard learning curve, and a lot more expensive to get started. If you want faster success and a simpler process, go electric. 

Since it is happening with different colors of different brands, and different glazes, the problem is not with the underglazes or the glazes themselves, but rather the clay. When you say you've used 3 different white clays, what is the max firing temp for those clays? Were they all rated to 1300F? If so, that may be part of the problem. Using a clay that is made to mature at the temperature you're glaze firing to may solve the problem. When glaze firing to cone 05, were you using a body specifically made for low fire?
Does the underglaze shiver if i you don't put a clear glaze over it? 
Adding kaolin to slip is problematic, and adding slip at the wrong time (too dry) can also cause problems.
One other possibility, do you have lotion/moisturizer on your hands while touching the bisque? I've seen that cause crawling, but I suppose it could also cause shivering.

You can't go wrong with either one. They are very similar in construction aside from the element holders. Both have zone control, neither one requires element pins. The L&L will be easier to replace bricks, but if you're careful with your kiln you won't need to do that.
There's very little reason to fire to cone 10 in an electric kiln unless you're doing crystalline work. Glazes won't turn out the same as if fired in a gas kiln to cone 10, because most cone 10 glazes are made to fire in reduction. If your'e firing in oxidation, cone 6 is a much smarter way to go. Your kiln will last longer, your elements will last longer, and your firing and maintenance costs will be much lower. If you are going to do crystalline work, then the L&L JH model is the way to go. It's rated to cone 12, is built with K26 bricks, and has type S thermocouples, so it can handle the high temps much better.
Shop around for best pricing. 'Packages' aren't always the best deal. Since you're in Washington, I highly recommend calling Rob Battey at Northwest Potter's Supply if you go with the L&L. He's a great guy and has been providing tech support for L&L for years.

If you measure the resistance of the elements you can calculate the amperage draw. AFAIK it's not a Paragon, although the color is different. Pacific Kiln is a company in California, which may or may not be the same company. Their web site doesn't show any studio size kilns, but it might be worth sending them an email.

You can't go wrong with either one. They are very similar in construction aside from the element holders. Both have zone control, neither one requires element pins. The L&L will be easier to replace bricks, but if you're careful with your kiln you won't need to do that.
There's very little reason to fire to cone 10 in an electric kiln unless you're doing crystalline work. Glazes won't turn out the same as if fired in a gas kiln to cone 10, because most cone 10 glazes are made to fire in reduction. If your'e firing in oxidation, cone 6 is a much smarter way to go. Your kiln will last longer, your elements will last longer, and your firing and maintenance costs will be much lower. If you are going to do crystalline work, then the L&L JH model is the way to go. It's rated to cone 12, is built with K26 bricks, and has type S thermocouples, so it can handle the high temps much better.
Shop around for best pricing. 'Packages' aren't always the best deal. Since you're in Washington, I highly recommend calling Rob Battey at Northwest Potter's Supply if you go with the L&L. He's a great guy and has been providing tech support for L&L for years.

As I mentioned in your other thread, cone 10 in a gas kiln is not the same as cone 10 in an electric kiln. It's about atmosphere, not temperature. There is no difference between cone 6 electric and cone 10 gas in terms of durability or quality of work. There are a small handful of glaze types that require a reduction atmosphere for them to work, and therefore need a gas kiln, but other than that you can do just as much in an electric kiln. Cone 6 has the benefit of more stability with colors, and a lot more options with commercially available glazes.  If you really like shino and tenmoku glazes, you need cone 10 reduction. They will not work in an electric kiln. If you don't have experience in firing a gas kiln, it's going to be a long hard learning curve, and a lot more expensive to get started. If you want faster success and a simpler process, go electric. 

Also make sure your bat pins are tight.

The knocking is likely from the bat slipping. The oblong hole is not ideal, but that's how Brent makes them. There are other bats on the market that do not have oblong holes, like Northstar, but another solution is a BatMate or Bat Gripper. There's a few on the market but I know Xiem and Bailey both have a version. It's a think piece that sits under the bat and gives it more grip. My students love them.

Also make sure your bat pins are tight.

@davidh4976 Sounds like you got it figured out.
For future reference, and for others that may read this:
1. When the breaker trips immediately when the elements turn on, then there's a short in the system somewhere. Usually it's in the kiln, like a relay has melted out or a wiring connection has fried and there's a bare wire making contact with the kiln body, or it wasn't wired properly when you repaired it. In rare instances the short could be in the outlet or the wires from the outlet to the breaker.
2. When the breaker trips after the kiln has been on for a few minutes (or longer), then  it's a breaker issue. Either the breaker is the wrong size, or it's old and worn out.

I figured out what was causing this, but wanted to allow for a lot of firings to make sure. It turns out that inside the digital controller that I added, the 'wire-end' of the compression terminal on one of the internal wires was a bit too close to the controller's metal housing. I disassembled the controller (which was bought in one preassembled piece), and found signs of arcing. I put a good bend into the terminal, put everything back together, and have had no problems now over many, many firings.

Many commercial underglazes just don't hold up at cone 10. They start to flux out and that causes them to behave poorly when you put a glaze over them. If you're just looking for black or blue, you'd probably be better off making your own underglaze or slip. If you do want to use commercial underglazes, each color will need to be tested to see how it holds up and cone 10 and with your clear glaze.

Only very small kilns will run on 120V service. Any kiln of functional size will need 220/240 volts. The smallest kiln I would consider is an 18" wide model. But ideally a 23" wide model would be the most functional, as you can fit plates and serving bowls in it much easier. First thing to do is to take a look at the web sites of some kiln manufacturers in your area to get an idea of what's out there, and see what the electrical requirements are for the size of kiln you want. Then have an electrician check out your system to see what size circuit your system can handle. Minimum you'll need a 30 amp breaker, on up to 50 or 60 amps depending on the size of kiln you want. At £800 you'll have to buy used, but looking at the new ones will give you an idea of what you'll need to do as far as hooking it up. If the kiln is indoors, it will need to be vented, or at the very least have 2 windows that can create a cross draft with fans.

Many commercial underglazes just don't hold up at cone 10. They start to flux out and that causes them to behave poorly when you put a glaze over them. If you're just looking for black or blue, you'd probably be better off making your own underglaze or slip. If you do want to use commercial underglazes, each color will need to be tested to see how it holds up and cone 10 and with your clear glaze.

I'd go with the 325 unless it's really expensive compared to the other. The finer it is the easier it will enter the melt.

I'd go with the 325 unless it's really expensive compared to the other. The finer it is the easier it will enter the melt.

Another way to get some great colors is to use salt. Soak wood chips in a saturated salt water, let them dry, then use them in the saggar. It can give great red, yellow, and orange colors.

It's not about temperature, it's about heatwork, which is what cones measure. Setting it at 950C doesn't necessarily mean cone 08. It depends on the rate of climb of the final 100C degrees. If it's not hitting the cone, then it could be due to the rate of the final ramp, or simply that the system needs to be calibrated. You can do a thermocouple offset which will affect all temperatures, or a cone offset to change the final temp of a specific cone. Using the pre-programmed firing schedule (I'd use Medium speed) will give you a better idea of how accurately the system is firing compared to a custom schedule.