Kiln identification

[ChrisC]

Hello, Firstly wasnt sure where the right spot was to ask this one.

I could really use some assistance if anyone can identify a kiln by images. The name plate was never stamped with amperage / phase or anything. I have bought it second hand the previous owner said it was only used for earthen ware it had been wired into the property with a 63amp breaker. none of the companies exist now - on the name plate or where they purchased from. it has Jacks ceramic imports on the plate and made in australia by JCI, however nothing comes up in seaches, hoping someone may recognise the make. Would like to be able to identify accurate range on temp and also amperage. Depth is 560mm x 560mm wide internal. Thankyou

[davidh4976]

The photos are a bit low res.  I can't tell the model number on the controller.  If it is an IPCO Studio 3000, you can find a manual here: https://kiln.expert/images/manuals-pdf/IPCOStudio3000Manual.pdf

It looks like the controller was not original but was added on replacing a kiln sitter. The blue part of the box make me think it could be a Paragon kiln.  Similar to the current Paragon TNF233 10 Sided kiln.

Is there anything on the the data plate at all?

 

[Min]

Nothing to do with the make of the kiln but I would suggest taking those shelves and posts off the lid of the kiln. Lids are expensive to replace if they crack.

[neilestrick]

If you measure the resistance of the elements you can calculate the amperage draw. AFAIK it's not a Paragon, although the color is different. Pacific Kiln is a company in California, which may or may not be the same company. Their web site doesn't show any studio size kilns, but it might be worth sending them an email.

[ChrisC]

6 hours ago, Min said:

Nothing to do with the make of the kiln but I would suggest taking those shelves and posts off the lid of the kiln. Lids are expensive to replace if they crack.

Thankyou for the feedback, this was a photo from the previous owner, its not kept like that now but good to know thankyou !

[ChrisC]

13 hours ago, davidh4976 said:

The photos are a bit low res.  I can't tell the model number on the controller.  If it is an IPCO Studio 3000, you can find a manual here: https://kiln.expert/images/manuals-pdf/IPCOStudio3000Manual.pdf

It looks like the controller was not original but was added on replacing a kiln sitter. The blue part of the box make me think it could be a Paragon kiln.  Similar to the current Paragon TNF233 10 Sided kiln.

Is there anything on the the data plate at all?

 

Thankyou, yes that is the controller model. No there is absolutely nothing on the name plate - thats what has made this an impossible task. By pure chance someone listed an older Paragon kiln today for sale, whilst the control box isnt blue everything else looks to be the same apart from the lid support on top , so possibly the importer just put their own name on my one - the warning wording is also extremely similar. they list theirs as 40amp. Thanks very much I think you may be on to something. I'll continue my investiagtions into the Paragon make. Cheers 

[ChrisC]

7 hours ago, neilestrick said:

If you measure the resistance of the elements you can calculate the amperage draw. AFAIK it's not a Paragon, although the color is different. Pacific Kiln is a company in California, which may or may not be the same company. Their web site doesn't show any studio size kilns, but it might be worth sending them an email.

Thanks very much, I'll take the cover off and measure the resistance of the elements later this week - as per my reply to Davidh - someone posted a Paragon for sale today which is near identical apart from the controller / colour of cover panel and lid hinge. I'll keep sluthing and see how the ohms measure - the one listed for sale was 40amp. Cheers

 

[davidh4976]

When you open it up to measure element resistance, you also want to note how they are connected. Some may be connected in series and some in  parallel. With that configuration information and element resistance, you can calculate the total current draw and therefore determine the required circuit size. If you are not comfortable with figuring that out, an electrician or anyone with electrical engineering schooling should be able to help you. If you take good photos of the connections inside the box, we might be able to help, too!

[ChrisC]

1 hour ago, davidh4976 said:

When you open it up to measure element resistance, you also want to note how they are connected. Some may be connected in series and some in  parallel. With that configuration information and element resistance, you can calculate the total current draw and therefore determine the required circuit size. If you are not comfortable with figuring that out, an electrician or anyone with electrical engineering schooling should be able to help you. If you take good photos of the connections inside the box, we might be able to help, too!

Fantastic thanks so much for your feedback, I have my electrician coming around this week to do some other work so will get him to double check the calcs, thanks again. 

 

[PeterH]

17 hours ago, davidh4976 said:

When you open it up to measure element resistance, you also want to note how they are connected. Some may be connected in series and some in  parallel. With that configuration information and element resistance, you can calculate the total current draw and therefore determine the required circuit size.

Purely as an example, you can find Paragon kiln diagrams at
https://corp.paragonweb.com/support/kiln-wiring-diagrams/

There are three for the TNF233 (single/three phase and probably different controllers), showing differences in resistance and connectivity between elements.
e.g. https://eadn-wc04-7751283.nxedge.io/wp-content/uploads/Wtnf233.pdf

BTW what is your mains supply?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity_by_country
Nominal voltage is 230/400 V, in practice 240/415 V is more commonly used.
 

[ChrisC]

1 hour ago, PeterH said:

Purely as an example, you can find Paragon kiln diagrams at
https://corp.paragonweb.com/support/kiln-wiring-diagrams/

There are three for the TNF233 (single/three phase and probably different controllers), showing differences in resistance and connectivity between elements.
e.g. https://eadn-wc04-7751283.nxedge.io/wp-content/uploads/Wtnf233.pdf

BTW what is your mains supply?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity_by_country
Nominal voltage is 230/400 V, in practice 240/415 V is more commonly used.
 

Thanks Peter, That is really handy. I'm in Australia and my supply is 240v - the one thing when looking at the drawings is when using V/R for Amps I dont get 40amps as per their drawing - Is there an example of how to calculate that ? Looking at the 2 elements in the attached drawing these would be in series ? so still measured at 17.2ohms ? (when 8.6ohms each ). Appreciate any knowledge you can pass on, thanks again 

Wtnf233.pdf

[PeterH]

3 hours ago, ChrisC said:

Thanks Peter, That is really handy. I'm in Australia and my supply is 240v - the one thing when looking at the drawings is when using V/R for Amps I dont get 40amps as per their drawing - Is there an example of how to calculate that ?

I calculate  240/17.3 + 240/(8.6+8.6) + 240/17.3 = 41.7 amps

I'm not familiar with kilns, but the difference between 40 & 41.7 could well be related to the fact that the resistance of the elements rises as they get hotter.

PS There are lots of mnemonic diagrams about if you need a reminder of the formulae.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=voltage+current+resistance+triangle&t=ftsa&iax=images&ia=images

[ChrisC]

8 minutes ago, PeterH said:

I calculate  240/17.3 + 240/(8.6+8.6) + 240/17.3 = 41.7 amps

I'm not familiar with kilns, but the difference between 40 & 41.7 could well be related to the fact that the resistance of the elements rises as they get hotter.

PS There are lots of mnemonic diagrams about if you need a reminder of the formulae.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=voltage+current+resistance+triangle&t=ftsa&iax=images&ia=images

Thanks very much Peter, thats what I was getting and couldnt reconcile the extra few amps, Cheers !

[neilestrick]

The bricks look similar to Paragon, but a lot of kilns are made that way. Without seeing them in person I couldn't say if that blue kiln is a Paragon or not. What type of connectors does it use for the element feeder wires? The control box does not look like a Paragon to me because the vent holes are not the same. Paragon uses louvers, not holes, and a different color blue. Paragon elements may fit it, but they may not. Can you post a picture of the bricks where the elements transition from one row to the next?

[ChrisC]

On 4/30/2024 at 5:02 AM, neilestrick said:

The bricks look similar to Paragon, but a lot of kilns are made that way. Without seeing them in person I couldn't say if that blue kiln is a Paragon or not. What type of connectors does it use for the element feeder wires? The control box does not look like a Paragon to me because the vent holes are not the same. Paragon uses louvers, not holes, and a different color blue. Paragon elements may fit it, but they may not. Can you post a picture of the bricks where the elements transition from one row to the next?

Thanks Neil, I've just opened it up today, I've attached the photos of how the elements layout in the bricks also the cover and the wiring terminals of the elements. 

The resistance measured was - Top and Bottom element 19.2ohms each and the  2 middle elements are 11.2ohms each but the 2 middle elements are wired together - a link wire from end to the next element down, I realise now the photo is a bit hard to see because of the stainless reflection. 

I was thinking that this would make it - 240/19.2=12.5A (x2- top and bottom) + 240/(11.2+11.2(middle)) = 10.7A = total amperage = 35.7amp ? So 40amp cicuit would be about correct. 

The higher resistance elements and slightly lower amperage would line up with what the previous owner said about it being lowfire ? If I've got that right 

The relays are also 25AMP and not 30AMP like in the Paragon drawings , once again uploaded a dud photo there but 3 relays 

I've got an electrician coming in the next few days to install a 40amp circuit for another kiln so I'll get him to check it out while here 

Cheers 

[davidh4976]

If your 35.7 amp calculation is correct, you need a 50 amp circuit.  A 40 amp circuit is not big enough because circuit breakers don't like running at more than 80% of their rating. It may be fine for some time, but then can trip at the most inconvenient time. In the U.S., the National Electrical Code requires the circuit breaker for a kiln (classified as a "continuous load") be between 125% and 150% of the kiln's rating.

[neilestrick]

There's certainly a lot about it that looks like Paragon, but also a lot that doesn't. The inside of the control box looks very Paragon. could be they made it to someone else's specs. 

For comparison, the L&L and Skutt kilns of that size pull 48 amps and are rated to cone 10. They are a bit overpowered, though, because the 27" tall version also pulls 48 amps and is rated to cone 10. The Paragon TNF233, which this kiln may very well be, is rated to cone 10 at 40 amps. I would definitely contact Paragon and see what they think. 

You have solid state relays. Are there any mechanical relays in there, too, that function as safety relays?

Are your bricks 2.5" thick or 3" thick? That will affect the peak temp as well.

[ChrisC]

On 5/2/2024 at 12:41 AM, neilestrick said:

There's certainly a lot about it that looks like Paragon, but also a lot that doesn't. The inside of the control box looks very Paragon. could be they made it to someone else's specs. 

For comparison, the L&L and Skutt kilns of that size pull 48 amps and are rated to cone 10. They are a bit overpowered, though, because the 27" tall version also pulls 48 amps and is rated to cone 10. The Paragon TNF233, which this kiln may very well be, is rated to cone 10 at 40 amps. I would definitely contact Paragon and see what they think. 

You have solid state relays. Are there any mechanical relays in there, too, that function as safety relays?

Are your bricks 2.5" thick or 3" thick? That will affect the peak temp as well.

Hi Neil, the bricks are 2.5" thick, there is no other relays, only the safety switch for the lid. I'll shoot Paragon an email. will post up anything I get back so it helps anyone else in the future. Its very close to the TNF233 but as you say theholes are punched rather than louvers in the terminal cover. 

 

On 5/1/2024 at 12:54 PM, davidh4976 said:

If your 35.7 amp calculation is correct, you need a 50 amp circuit.  A 40 amp circuit is not big enough because circuit breakers don't like running at more than 80% of their rating. It may be fine for some time, but then can trip at the most inconvenient time. In the U.S., the National Electrical Code requires the circuit breaker for a kiln (classified as a "continuous load") be between 125% and 150% of the kiln's rating.

Thanks David, Thats really interesting as I have another kiln that is 35amp and rated for a 40amp circuit, I'm not sure how thr rules differ in Australia though. I'll quiz my electrician. We tested amperage on that Kiln and was pulling around the 34.5amp mark when cycling on. 

[PeterH]

1 hour ago, ChrisC said:

Thats really interesting as I have another kiln that is 35amp and rated for a 40amp circuit, I'm not sure how thr rules differ in Australia though. I'll quiz my electrician.

I was interested to find this Australian article
https://sydneynorthshoreelectrician.com.au/electrical-service-panel-how-to-calculate-electrical-load-capacity/
... which contains these sentences
It is commonly recommended that the load never exceeds 80 per cent of the capacity of an electrical service panel.
and
The National Electric Code recommends that the overall capacity of the load does not exceed 80 per cent, ...

Which suggest to me that there is no regulation  demanding "over-rating" of breakers (at least in that region of Australia). But there are both informal and formal recommendations that this be done - apparently for both continuous and non-continuous  loads.

[ChrisC]

Just an FYI update for anyone following, heard back from Paragon, they did not make the kiln but confirmed their elements will fit just the same. I made an enquiry with another company that repairs kilns and supplies elements here in Aus and they thought that the importer brought them out of England. At this stage I still have no idea where its from but have been able to confirm it draws 35amp when running.