GEP Posted April 6, 2023 Report Share Posted April 6, 2023 I just placed a new order of supplies, and learned that the price of Gerstley Borate has gone through the roof. Last year it was $100 for a 50 lb sack. This year it is $250/50 lbs. Always thought of GB as a “cheap” flux, but not anymore. My supplier said they have no information from Laguna that the supply is running low. Possible, but Laguna isn’t saying. I took the “Mark C. approach” and bought enough to last about 3 years. I figure in that time we will learn if the supply really is running out. And if so, I’ll hopefully have enough time to figure out a new liner glaze recipe. My supplier also said, “GB price is bad, but the prices of Lithium and Spodumene have quadrupled.” In those cases they have an explanation, which is that lithium is in high demand now that battery-powered cars/devices have become so popular. Buckle up, folks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted April 6, 2023 Report Share Posted April 6, 2023 (edited) GB is no longer mined. Several years ago Laguna purchased a whole bunch thought to be spoils. The mine has been closed for many years and in its hey day was used to encase underground nuclear tests. It’s never really been something mined for potters and I would expect the price will continue to rise. Edited April 6, 2023 by Bill Kielb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GEP Posted April 6, 2023 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2023 24 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said: GB is no longer mined. Several years ago Laguna purchased a whole bunch thought to be spoils. The mine has been closed for many years and in its hey day was used to encase underground nuclear tests. It’s never really been something mined for potters and I would expect the price will continue to rise. Yes I know that Laguna purchased the remainders of the closed mine. But what they said at the time is “there is enough GB to last through the life spans of all current potters.” That’s why the price hike is confusing. It could just be greed, not shortage. Bam2015 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick White Posted April 6, 2023 Report Share Posted April 6, 2023 The report at the time from Laguna was that they picked up 3,000 tons of the stuff from the mineyard. That's a, well, I shouldn't say the word, but it is a lot. My guess is greed, but what do I know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Min Posted April 6, 2023 Report Share Posted April 6, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, GEP said: This year it is $250/50 lbs. It's $516 / 22.68kg here, so a little over twice what you paid. I've contacted Laguna twice in the past month asking about an analysis for a different material, still haven't heard back from them. Call me sceptical but I doubt they would disclose any info on the Gerstley Borate situation. Edited April 6, 2023 by Min Roberta12 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GEP Posted April 6, 2023 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2023 30 minutes ago, Min said: It's $516 / 22.68kg here, so a little over twice what you paid. Holy moly!!!!!! Roberta12 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted April 7, 2023 Report Share Posted April 7, 2023 Soon look for new substitutes is my guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GEP Posted April 7, 2023 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2023 It’s weird that Laguna is being transparent about Spodumene and Lithium, but not Gerstley Borate. If they really are running out, they shouldn’t mind letting others develop substitutes and workarounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Banks Posted April 7, 2023 Report Share Posted April 7, 2023 1 hour ago, GEP said: It’s weird that Laguna is being transparent about Spodumene and Lithium, but not Gerstley Borate. If they really are running out, they shouldn’t mind letting others develop substitutes and workarounds. When GB was going extinct the first time I started using Boraq 2 from and it worked just fine for what I was after. This was ? 2? decades ago? https://digitalfire.com/recipe/p3998 https://digitalfire.com/material/boraq+2 https://digitalfire.com/material/boraq+3 GEP and Min 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roberta12 Posted April 7, 2023 Report Share Posted April 7, 2023 @GEP I just checked online with my supplier and Denver for pricing on GB. It seems a lot less that what you paid. https://stoneleafpottery.com/clay-raw-materials/?page=7 GEP 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Min Posted April 7, 2023 Report Share Posted April 7, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, GEP said: It’s weird that Laguna is being transparent about Spodumene and Lithium, but not Gerstley Borate. It was the Spodumene Substitute that I emailed them twice about and didn't get a reply. My email was forwarded to a tech and that was the last I heard from them. I then contacted Pottery Supply House in Ontario (same company as Euclids) and asked about their Spodumene Blend and they confirmed it was the Laguna Substitute product and quickly gave me the analysis which I posted in the thread above that Mark linked. Still haven't heard anything from Laguna. We've been down this road before with Gerstley, lots of subs already developed, I think it's just a question of finding one and tweaking the chem to use one of the alternatives. Quick google search, Laguna Borate at Sheffields, $34- for 50 lb bag. Main differences are Laguna Borate has more boron, alumina and silica. Edited April 7, 2023 by Min added a thought Roberta12 and GEP 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callie Beller Diesel Posted April 10, 2023 Report Share Posted April 10, 2023 Ferro frits 3134 and 3124 were designed as replacements for Gerstley Borate too. The drawback to using the frits are that you loose the trace amounts of phosphorus, titanium and iron that add more visual interest. Which was the gripe 20 years ago: the substitutes were boring by themselves, and you couldn’t just swap 1:1. Edited to add: the price of freight has been going through the roof for quite some time. I’d imagine that accounts for at least a portion of the price increase. Probably not all of it, but at least some. Roberta12 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted April 10, 2023 Report Share Posted April 10, 2023 On 4/7/2023 at 8:01 AM, Roberta12 said: @GEP I just checked online with my supplier and Denver for pricing on GB. It seems a lot less that what you paid. https://stoneleafpottery.com/clay-raw-materials/?page=7 Better stock up now as its going to go away is my thought Roberta12 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted April 10, 2023 Report Share Posted April 10, 2023 (edited) Laguna is short staffed as are most places due to covid and they have yet to recover. Also there has been a turnover in the top positions as older folks retired out. Clay output has been tough and many bodies have just been in short supply -all clay makers at laest on west coast is this way now.In all my Laguna years (I swicthed to them in the middle 80s's from westwood clay bodies) its never been this bad. They grew and bought out westwood and movds to that facility and then bought out the clay plant in Ohio (not sure what that name was Neil may know) then Axner in Florida-Stewarts in LA and Thoirley shevel manufacture as well. They are the gorilla in the clay field . I knew the old owner and his father (who retired near me before passing) I bought some of his stuff long ago as well. When I switched porcealin bodies in the 80s I went down to meet them(the owners) and see the plant as it was a big deal for me to switch -12 hour drive each way. That was long ago but I have a long history with Laguna as well as being a distribiutor in more modern times. For many many decades I would order at least 12 tons to get the best price breaks(the 12 ton break was the best price) before becoming a distributor . Part of my overall success is keeping costs low as possiable on materials.. Today I noticed I'm down to 1 ton of clay and have not been this low in over 20 years. I have a 8 pallet order in now and they are making the extra soft clay but as noted eralier its a slower process these days. Trucking is now a huge issue for me as well. We live in the boonies and trucking has always been an issue. Now its worse. Edited April 14, 2023 by Mark C. GEP 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GEP Posted April 11, 2023 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2023 17 hours ago, Mark C. said: then bought out the clay plant in Ohio The Ohio plant used to be Miller Clay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Min Posted April 11, 2023 Report Share Posted April 11, 2023 18 hours ago, Mark C. said: Better stock up now as its going to go away is my thought I wouldn't at the prices being charged. There are lots of other materials that can supply the necessary boron for far less money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hulk Posted April 11, 2023 Report Share Posted April 11, 2023 I've just over sixty pounds of Gerstley Borate to work with whilst figuring out replacement(s)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GEP Posted April 11, 2023 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2023 5 hours ago, Min said: There are lots of other materials that can supply the necessary boron for far less money. What would you recommend? My local supplier is also having some issues with Frit 3134. It’s marginally cheaper, but still not cheap. Right now, they keep a waiting list of everyone who wants it, and anytime they receive any, it’s sold out before it hits the shelves. They told me I can get on this waiting list too, if I want. Are there other options? Roberta12 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Min Posted April 11, 2023 Report Share Posted April 11, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, GEP said: What would you recommend? My local supplier is also having some issues with Frit 3134. It’s marginally cheaper, but still not cheap. Right now, they keep a waiting list of everyone who wants it, and anytime they receive any, it’s sold out before it hits the shelves. They told me I can get on this waiting list too, if I want. Are there other options? This really depends on what else is in the recipe. I took a sample glaze, Lynette's Opal, this seems to be widely used for the past couple years and replaced the Gerstley Borate with 3 different materials that all could be used to supply the boron, Ferro Frit 3124, Laguna Borate and Ferro Frit 3134. Each of those contributes slightly different amounts of other materials than Gerstley Borate. What looks okay on glaze calc doesn't always translate to the bucket or glaze fire so testing would be required to see how they behave. I use Insight glaze calc but the same thing can be done for free using Glazy. I purposely used Ferro 3134 in one of the examples and Ferro 3124 in another, see what it did to the EPK amounts? Since Ferro 3124 supplies more alumina than Ferro 3134 I had to reduce the EPK in the former. Since the original had Gerstley and we know that contributes to glaze gelling the alternative recipes with frit will suspend less therefore some extra bentonite might be necessary with Ferro 3124 and Laguna Borate version. Edited April 12, 2023 by Min clarity GEP 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GEP Posted April 11, 2023 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2023 Thanks @Min, this is really helpful! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callie Beller Diesel Posted April 12, 2023 Report Share Posted April 12, 2023 Re bucket suspension properties: with recipes like Lynette’s Opal that also contain soluble ingredients like neph sye, if you noticed gelling issues with a gerstley borate version, a frit or borate substitute could alleviate some of it. I say some, because I find frit 3134 is also slightly soluble. Not nearly as bad as GB and it takes longer, but it does happen. After Ferro moved their production to Mexico it took them a while to get back up and running properly. I’ve heard some rumours about first batch quality control bumps that have been worked out. It sounds like they’re re-establishing supply networks, and working on back orders. I would assume that availability of those frits will smooth out before we’re in a substitution crisis again. Something to keep an eye on. GEP 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawnhar Posted April 13, 2023 Report Share Posted April 13, 2023 On 4/10/2023 at 6:04 PM, Mark C. said: Today I noticed I'm down to 1 ton of clay and have not been this low in over 20 years. I know it's off topic but I just love this statement. Babs and LeeU 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtRoads Posted April 16, 2023 Report Share Posted April 16, 2023 (edited) Yeah I ordered 4000 lbs back in November and didn't get until February. They were out of something ... I want to think they said Magnesium? Funny, I was like Mark and had just around 1000 pounds when it came in. However, this year I have ZERO employees in the back. Plus I'm supplementing with slip casted wares (like mugs and vases). I'm going to make do with this 5000 pounds for the year. I will be cutting back but have raised prices. Not running a "production" side business now, it's more supply based. Customers are willing to pay more and I continually remind them I am 65 now, and won't be doing this forever. And they are buying "extra". I tell them "if you see something you really want, get it now." Oh I use Laguna stoneware #65, hard mixed to 7.5. I think normal is 6.2. Really have enjoyed my Laguna clay and glazes over the years. Cheers to that company! Really excellent service. Edited April 16, 2023 by DirtRoads shawnhar 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted April 18, 2023 Report Share Posted April 18, 2023 I just read in Forbes Magazine that Lithium prices for now are headed down. That will trickle down to us potters over time. A bright spot in rising prices Callie Beller Diesel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly in AK Posted April 27, 2023 Report Share Posted April 27, 2023 Just checked on Veegum, last time I bought was right before the pandemic hit, it was around $10/pound. Now it's nearly $30! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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