Brushing on glaze

[Pyewackette]

Another thing I used to be better at than I am now.  In perusing the archives I came across the above posting from @oldlady.  The studio minion at my current studio emphasized that I was NOT to "overwet" my pieces before glazing, but I swear I used to actually dunk them in water before glazing.  Her approach is to use the driest possible sponge just to remove dust and debris.  I think this may be a big part of my problems with the glaze seeming to go on so thickly.  I get those nasty little lumpy blobs at the bottom of most of my pieces that I've always associated with glazing too thickly, and uneven results that I've always associated with glazing on a bisque piece that is too dry.  I actually have a picture of this, see below

Those are exactly the same glaze combinations.  The glazes are "Snow" and "Celadon Green" studio glazes, layered with Snow first then the Celadon Green on top.  

The first is fired at cone 6 in oxidation.  The second was fired at cone 10 in reduction. Both were dipped.  This is technically a "white stoneware" but it has an awful lot of iron in it for a "white" clay. At bisque, it fires to a sort of insipid pink, at cone 6 oxidation to a sort of pale tan, and at cone 10 reduction to almost a speckled brown.

The cone 6 glaze lumped along the bottom but also pinholed, including on the inside where there is only one coat of the snow. The second was actually accidentally fired at cone 10 as the Celadon Green is known to be runny at cone 10, but I quite like the color it came out, if I could keep it from running I'd do that on purpose.  Or at least not lump up at the bottom like that.  I did some additional strokes of the Snow on the outside, I wouldn't do that again.  Unnecessary, added nothing to the piece. Kind of obscured it actually.

On the second piece I didn't get pinholing on the inside but I did get a lot of brown spots where the glaze is shallower, that I think of as "bleed through", which I assume is due to the iron affecting the glaze (Snow on the inside).  The cone 10 piece did get a second coat of the Snow on the inside.

Yesterday I sort of sanded down some of the glazed pieces that have not been fired yet to reduce the thickness of the glaze and maybe keep it from lumping up at the bottom like that, don't know how that'll work yet but I figured I would try.

But I'm thinking dipping my bisqued pieces in water before glazing might also help a lot, to keep the glaze from drying so fast and thick.

Am I on the right track? Is there something else I should try?

Pye

[docweathers]

Good stuff thanks.

[oldlady]

so far, you have indicated twice that the people at wherever you go do not seem to know much about what you want to do.   maybe it is time to find a different place or do it on your own. 

for years, i have tried to teach anyone who will listen that clay is not so strange and not so delicate.   do what i tell you just once and i will never bring it up again if it does not work for you.

take a piece of clay straight out of the bag or from your pile of clay.  roll out  a business card size piece and  flatten it to about the thickness of your usual work.   let it dry out.  as long as it takes to be totally dry.   use a hair dryer, heat gun or whatever you need to get it completely dry if you are in a hurry. 

get a cup of water.   dip the clay piece into the water  to the halfway point.   dip does not mean soak it for ten minutes, it does not mean count 6 seconds or anything else.    it means get it wet and pull it out of the water immediately.  immediately  scratch the clay where it is dry and scratch the clay where it is wet.   is there a clear line showing how deep the water went into the clay?   how different was the scratching, hard on the dry, easy on the wet?   which is NOT WET,  just damp.   is the clay "card" weaker in any way than it was before you dipped it? 

that is raw clay, imagine how much stronger bisqued clay is.   if you have a piece of broken bisque, dip it in water and break it again to see how deep the water went.  learn by doing it yourself.

i am simply trying to tell you that most people have some weird ideas from some source that is simply wrong.   wetting a pot by dipping it into  water will not weaken it, break it make it turn into mud or any other strange, unscientific, mythical disaster.   try thinking for yourself if something seems not to make sense.

 

 

[Pyewackette]

I glazed my last 2 pieces from the wheel throwing class and I tried wetting them first. I won't know how well that worked until they get fired but it LOOKED better on the pot - not so thick, not so many bubbles to smooth out. The proof is in the firing.  I should have the "sanded off" pieces out of the glaze kiln in a couple of days, those had been loaded up some time today.

Is there a good book on basic (and I do mean basic) glazing techniques I should look for?  I'm getting a copy of Vince Pitelka's "Clay" from the library, and hopefully will be able to get Making Marks by Robin Hopper and Ceramics: Mastering the Craft by Richard Zakin via interlibrary loan.  

[PeterH]

How long do you dip for?

While you are getting you hand in, it might be worth looking at the thickness of the unfired glaze (with a pin).

PS Lots of things influence how fast the layer of glaze builds up while dipping, many are out of your control in your current environment.

So concentrate on:
- finding out how thick the unfired glaze layer needs to be to give good results (using test tiles if it's not obvious)
- changing what's under your control (e.g. dip-time and clay absorbancy (by pre-wetting)) to get consistent thickness control
- recycling pots with inappropriate unfired glaze thickness (wash the glaze off, let the pot dry, glaze again)

One shape of test tile, with vertical surfaces to see how the glaze runs.
Making Glaze Test Tiles on the Wheel  https://youtu.be/g859ELvyu-Q

 

[Babs]

Peter is right!.

Work with what you have control of.

Thickness of ware etc. as discussed.

Because you don't havecontrol of

Type of clay 

Cone of bisque firing.

Glaze ingredients 

S.G. of glaze,

Cone of glaze firing and firing schedule of both firings.

Whew!

Don't try to convert those around you , test your way to being successful with what is on offer.

Make notes of all you try.

There are numerous books on glazing.

but if you haven't control....

Local library would have a few, and pos. order some in for you.

 

[PeterH]

A video showing some of the ways to improve the suitability of a glaze slop for 3-second dipping, most of which are out of your control at the moment. It also shows some of the effects of varying the unfired glaze thickness on the final appearance.

Concepts in Glaze Thickness and Application

 

[Hulk]

I'm having some luck getting an even coating, not too thick, very little dripping/sheeting, all without having to hurry up, via a) working with "wetter" glaze - more water; specific gravity 1.39 to 1.47, depending on the glaze, and b) adjusting the thixotropy so the glaze "jells" well. Keeping the slurry well stirred, and sieving aforehand (if it's been more than a few weeks since) have become habits.

When dipping, a smooth even retrieval (going up and out) - not too fast! - seems to work well; the only place where moving glaze forms a drip is on the rim, where shake shake, then run the drip around and around equals voila!

Some of that thick droop may be due to glaze that moves more...

Nice profile/contour and foot detail there Pye!

[docweathers]

Thanks so they good info

[Pyewackette]

@PeterH I have basically been trying to get the pieces in and out of there as fast as I possibly can.  The preferred method of both of the studio minions is to hand dip, eg grasp the pot by the foot ring and dip it in and out.  I don't have the strength for that and I find it quite awkward.  Both minions actively discourage students from using the tongs and I don't quite get why, but I did try it their way several times before giving up and turning to the tongs. It does not exceed the 3 second dip I've seen suggested elsewhere.  When I try to fill the inside and pour the glaze out I ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS get significant drippage down the outside, which apparently I am SUPPOSED to think of as fortuitous episodes of wonderful serendipity but really it just looks sloppy to me.  I am quite sure that is due to lack of dexterity on my part and not some basic flaw in the technique. Lots of people seem to do this just fine without so much accompanying slop but I just don't have the hand strength or manual dexterity to do it well, so I am seeking alternate glazing methods to make up for my physical deficiencies. I am also not hopeful of being able to use that method on the much larger bowls I hope to be turning out soon.

Dipping with the tongs is fine as long as (a) you only want your piece to be one color throughout or (b) you are planning to dip the exterior in another color OVER the first color.  I guess that would work on the inside as well but I am generally (at this time) pretty happy to have a plain white interior when I'm going for a 2 tone pot, and there is the pesky problem of my inability to dump glaze out of the interior without dripping it all over the outside.

I've done the wash-it-off-and-try-again thing several times so far.  At this time I am pinning my hopes on reverting to my former habit of dipping the dry bisqued pot in water before attempting to glaze it.

Thanks for the pointer to the to the Britt glaze series.  Don't know how I missed that one.  My favorite youtube potters are *Hsin Lin Chuen* CORRECTED to Hsin Chuen Lin and Simon Leach, I've added John Britt to that list now. Sadly about half of the books he recommends are unobtanium, Glazes Cone 6 and The Practice of Stoneware Glazes are for all intents and purposes impossible to obtain. The former is only available used for $280 on Abe Books or $120 on amazon, the latter is only available (one copy that I could find) in French for a lotta money LOL!

@Babs Trust me, I am not even remotely interested in converting anybody in any way.  Who the hell am *I* anyway, just a little old lady who let time slip by without making significant progress towards my clay goals. I'm just trying to figure out how to make things work for me. I don't have anywhere near the knowledge or expertise to set myself up as some sort of clay crusader, LOL!

Some of this stuff is even out of the control of the studio minions.  People are constantly adding things to the glazes, or contaminating one glaze with another, don't clean up after themselves, etc etc.  The old timers sit around and grouse about the transient students but it is not ALWAYS the students who are doing these things - in fact it is often easily traced back to somebody who's had a studio membership for a coon's age and has a sense of ownership over the studio and everything in it.  If a glaze has been modified or contaminated, you can bet it wasn't a student who did it.  Some of them treat the space as their private domain rather than a shared space - one member is notorious for refusing to wash clay/glaze off their hands before using light switches, door handles, and equipment so they leave a trail of smudges and encrustation everywhere they go.  You know.  Typical studio stuff.

Let me just add, I am NOT in anyway accusing the studio minions of lack of expertise. If it seems that way, let me set the record straight on that issue.  I do think they absolutely DO NOT get where I'm coming from.  To them I'm just another grandma hobby potter (which actually DOES describe the vast majority of the long-term studio members, extending that to the grandpas). They think I ought to be more than satisfied with where I'm at (given that is further down the skills trail in the relatively short time I've been there than probably about half of the long-haulers).

To me, I'm trying to actually learn a few things here and develop some actual skills in whatever time is left to me. Even if I AM an actual grandma.

[PeterH]

1 hour ago, Pyewackette said:

I have basically been trying to get the pieces in and out of there as fast as I possibly can.  The preferred method of both of the studio minions is to hand dip, eg grasp the pot by the foot ring and dip it in and out.  I don't have the strength for that and I find it quite awkward.

Haven't tried it, but might be worth a try
Quick Tips: A Brilliant Glaze Dipping Solution  https://tinyurl.com/2p9y6bn3
Use a car dent puller to dip your pots in glaze!

1 hour ago, Pyewackette said:

When I try to fill the inside and pour the glaze out I ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS get significant drippage down the outside,

As I learned while doing practical chemistry at school, pouring liquids cleanly works best if done with great confidence and zero hesitation. Practice does eventually make less imperfect.

I cannot see it being a real solution to your problem, but we were told to pour from a beaker by holding a glass rod across its top, and then pouring down the rod.

Also worth looking at
How to Liner-Glaze a Mug https://tinyurl.com/3mnkmn39

PS Stumbled on this short review
The practice of stoneware glazes - D. De Montmollin https://tinyurl.com/2p9fp94a
... also follow the link in it to the Stull map  https://tinyurl.com/2yhh7zev

[Russ]

I use a few glazes that end up with a "fat roll" at the bottom after firing. There is an ancient  chinese word for this which excapes me, but this effect was quite revered.  In my opinion its not the way you glaze but its the properties of the glaze that make this happen. A glaze that is quite fluid at temp yet has a high amount of surface tension would be the culprit.

[Hulk]

Just wanted to add that "wetter" and "adjusted jel/thixotropy" per my post above, both directly from Mr. Hansen's website, articles, video clips.

The tweaks make glazing much more fun; that, practice, and learning from mistakes.
Heh, oh, I must "know" a lot by now then.

Pouring in and out the liner glaze, I'm amazed how much easier that's getting.
I use a ladle to pour it in; stir, stir, stir, pour it in - a bit more than just enough, but not a lot more.
Twist that arm all the way around so the pour out can be done in one motion, all the way around the rim, ending where the pour started.
Try beginning just next to any handle, so the last part of the pour easily clears the handle - pour over that part last.
Start the pour just after the untwist begins, so the glaze is running out down the inside at a diagonal to the low point, get it?
Grab some glasses, pint glasses, mugs, etc., your ladles, a bucket with water and practice with that. A lot. That's what I did!
Bring the pour around so the last bit is right next to where you started. Shake, shake, run the drip around.
If there's a drip forming afterward, dampen a finger and wait for the opportune moment to smooth it in - when the drop is still wet, but the sheen of the surrounding film of glaze has just come off ...now, all smoothed in.
Dip the rim, shake, shake, wait for it, and voila! Liner glaze done. A bit thicker on the rim, that works well for me.
Bowls, I'm pouring it in, tipping so the edge of the glaze pool gets right close to the rim, around, around again, then pour out. ...etc. as above, wait a bit, then dip the rim, etc.

I'm doing the sharp edge, per Mr. Hansen's article and video, hence, wait to dry, wax, cut, clean, wait, then outside glaze.

I can't hold on to the foot for an upside down dip very well.
Upside down is better, imo, for the heavier layer is on the rim side, vs. down by the foot - gravity an' all that.
Just have to be careful to hold the pot squared up, wax the inside a bit down from the rim, have a small damp sponge ready to clean up drops of glaze on the wax...
Since I like a sharp glaze edge on the foot side as well, I run tape around the foot, which gives me somewhat to hold on to - double duty.
A waxed foot, I have no hope of holding on to that - dodgy thumb joints, etc. 

[Babs]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CbBOeT1MrXu/?utm_medium=copy_link

A whole lotta shaking goin on.

But no drips. I use glazing tongs a lot.

[PeterH]

21 hours ago, Pyewackette said:

The Practice of Stoneware Glazes are for all intents and purposes impossible to obtain.

For what it's worth it's listed by a French site (hopefully English text). My French is close to zero,  but seems to be 41,35 € (<$46) with postage to Etats-Unis (which I believe is the USA). No idea about  customs issues.

https://www.editionsateliersdart.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=the+practice+of+stoneware+glazes

PS Where are you located, it helps with buying info. 

[Callie Beller Diesel]

Books aren’t usually an issue getting through customs, and it looks like that version is an English translation from the original French. Etats-Unis is indeed the US. If you open the website in Google, Google translate usually is pretty reliable between French and English. If not, I can help you muddle through. That’s a good price for that book.

[Pyewackette]

Well I have nil French (lotsa Spanish, a smattering of Italian, I can count to 10 in Romanian and 3 words of Telugu - but no French).  And putting it into Google translate disables all the links and buttons.  I get far enough to figure out that it is trying to make me create an account and then I'm stymied.  Also I'm not sure how it would work if I try to use my bank card to buy something in Euros?  ARRRRGH!

Oh yeah, and a few words of German that I learned from Hogan's Heroes, not from my German ancestors LOL!

I guess I do have a little French - that I learned from Miss Piggy, pretty much limited to moi and oui.  OH WAIT, and a phrase from a popular song from the 70s.  Pretty sure that's not going to help me here though.

[Pyewackette]

@Babs Yeah, glazing tongs, I use them and they hardly ever even leave a mark.  I'm not sure where the dissing of the glazing tongs is coming from over here, LOL!

@Hulk Apparently the glazing room over here is about to get a serious shakeup.  The new studio manager says he's going to basically clean it out and start over.  Specific gravity WILL be involved in maintaining the glazes from now on.  So at least there's that.  Also apparently many of the glazes aren't even categorized correctly for the cones they're supposed to be "good" for.  The "Snow" that crackled and spotted on me at Cone 10 is allegedly good for both cone 10 and cone 6 but clearly is not actually.  It also isn't white at cone 10, LOL!  And he says the glaze labeled "Leach White" supposedly for cone 10 is not, as mixed, a cone 10 glaze but a cone 6 glaze (and its grey at cone 6).  So basically there is no good liner glaze right now for cone 10 LOL!  And etc.  So we'll be getting an all new glaze line up by the end of this round of classes, he says. 

And hopefully more attention will be paid to keeping them stirred up - I ended up elbow deep in a 5 gallon bucket of something or other with a paint scraper trying to get the sediment up off the bottom and stirred back into the glaze and it took me like 15 minutes.  About halfway through I'm thinking to myself, well, all this time this glaze has been too thin, and by the time I'm done its going to be TOO THICK.  But what do you do?  LOL! Dang I hope there was nothing poisonous in that bucket ... 

Here's how the Snow looks for me at cone 6 vs cone 10, the crackling wasn't apparent until I'd put several cups of tea through it (thankfully I don't use milk or real sugar in my tea so hopefully I'm not going to food-poison myself with it):

 Crackled, and not even remotely white.  Boo!

As for dipping prowess, the smooth even retrieval is exactly what I am lacking LOL!

On 3/23/2022 at 10:07 AM, Hulk said:

Nice profile/contour and foot detail there Pye!

I thank you for your kind words (hope I actually deserve that LOL!)

I am trying.  Not back to where I was yet but I hope I am making progress. 

@PeterH So I'm a weirdo female tool aficionado and I ACTUALLY DO HAVE a small dent puller and have thought of trying to use it for dipping glaze, but the problem is I'm also a weirdo foot ringer - this is admittedly THE SMALLEST foot ring I have ever carved out (and I did it just because it looked RIGHT on that particular cup, I doubt I'll ever do one that small again) and see how it compares to the small dent puller:

I actually have not thrown a cup with a large enough foot for that to work - BUT I am hopeful that it MAY work with some of my bowls.

Thanks for the additional links, that one to the liner glaze articles is PARTICULARLY helpful.

On 3/23/2022 at 12:38 PM, Pyewackette said:

Hsin Lin Chuen

*I of course meant Hsin Chuen Lin.  *sigh* You would think I could at least get my favorite potter's name right ...

[Pyewackette]

@Russ Any chance of a picture of one (or more) of your pots with a "fat roll"?  I really like the color that one cup came out with on the outside, the purple one, but it'll be awhile before I can try to do that on purpose and I'm trying to think of ways to make it acceptable and non-dangerous for dripping on the shelves.  Like, definitely stop it further up, some ridges or lines to help catch or slow it down, and glazing the very bottom with something that WILL NOT MOVE.  I thought of trying underglaze and letting it roll down over part of the underglaze but I'm pretty sure I don't know of any cone 10 underglazes.

[PeterH]

@AdamFG How did the Fingerdips work out?

Place over fingers when dipping ware to leave a fingermark-free glazed surface. Surface tension holds a small amount of glaze in each cell so that when the ware is released whilst the glaze is still wet after dipping, the marks heal over instantly. They also provide 'grip' and act as a barrier to prevent the skin's oils from affecting glaze adhesion

PS Might the covering for a bag of onions be worth a try?

[Pyewackette]

@PeterH I doubt the onion bag would work its probably too thin but I would give it a try if I can find one.  Another option might be gutter screen, the plastic stuff, but I'm not sure it would improve grip that much because slippery plastic.  That stuff they wrap fancy fruit in might do the trick though, next time I see something wrapped in that stuff I'll snag it and see.  Well, if its a fruit I consider edible, at least.  I'll pass on the dragonfruit thankyouverymuch.

I also like this idea, I had thought of it before but keep forgetting it.  I assume I must have seen it somewhere ... I know I've seen it used to block the tops of large pieces when pouring glazes.

Went looking for more fingerdip info and there was the balloon thing too!

[PeterH]

Yes the balloon idea looks quite good.

Just in case you've missed it, for liner glazes
Glazing a Mug Using Multiple Glazes with Hsin-Chuen Lin https://tinyurl.com/5n7wh4a2
... from about 5mins.
Tried it with a mug of water over the sink, and you have to twist very sharply, and not mind a few splashes.

A quick mention of latex resist, when you want to resist at one stage, then remove before another.
Latex Resist Ceramics: How to Make Great Patterns When Glazing  https://tinyurl.com/ycxwctx7

PS Bits of this might be of interest
Glazing Possibilities- 28 Different Approaches to Glazing Pottery! https://tinyurl.com/p4jx55e9
Part 2 Final Glaze Results! Glazing Possibilities- 28 Different Approaches to Glazing! https://tinyurl.com/p4jx55e9