Problem with quality of clay

[NancyE]

I hope this is the correct forum, I really need advice and appreciate the quality of help and information I always receive.  Last year after lots of discussion I finally decided to order a ton of my favorite clay, Black Mountain from AArdvark, wet and already mixed.  I split the ton with a friend who was going to sell her half at her business.  The clay was full of white inclusions, some as large a 1/4", a nightmare for throwing and firing.  My friend and her customers are furious.  I spoke to the person I was referred to a Aardvark several times and I was told: " It was not their problem, sometimes the screens wear out from their supplier, they have no control over it, it's a problem with one of their raw materials..."  The only thing I could do was pack up the ton of clay, send it back for an exchange.  No mention was ever made of quality control at Aardvark.    I have used this clay for decades, it works best with my glazes, I love to throw it, I want to use it, but I cannot risk another fiasco like last year.  I am really struggling for money, but it's close to time to order clay.  Who do I speak to and how do I find them.  How do I approach them and what should my expectations be.  Should I expect them to test their product before selling it   Thank you,

Nancy

[Callie Beller Diesel]

Wow. That’s some pretty bad customer service on Aardvark’s part. If you’re buying clay a ton at at a time, they should definitely be concerned about large scale screwups like that. 

I’m going to tag @Min because she recently had some similar experiences with another company. (Give her a few days to reply though: she’s on vacay.)

They are correct in that sometimes material inconsistencies do occur, it happens everywhere with every company, it’s just a matter of how they deal with it. If the batch is messed up, the best thing they are able to do is offer to exchange for better. I hope you did that, because I hate to think of the hours or wasted pots otherwise.

Going forward, if you want to re-order the same clay, given their lacklustre response it’s going to be a buyer beware situation. I’d go to a local supplier and ask if they have one box on hand from a different batch number, presumably one more recent. Open the box, and wire open a block in the parking lot to see if there’s any evidence of those inclusions. If it’s got them, point it out to the vendor so they know too. If the clay store complains, Aardvark might listen more.

 If the inclusions are gone,  bring it home and run some tests to make sure it’s back to its proper specs. If it passes, go ahead and re-order. If not, could be time to pick a different clay.  Buy a smaller batch of the black mountain to tide you over if you must. 

[Mark C.]

My 50 years experience (about 40 with Laguna most as a direct  supplier) is the same story. This may sound weird but its only 1 bad ton.

I have had it happen to more than a ton a time . My fellow potter friends (all full timers) have all had this happen over time. It never the suppliers fault-thats always the same story. The box of most clays lists this on the outside and say to test it.

One had a ton with lots of  inch silicone caulk chunks in it. They did know about iot and sent him another ton-they do not want the clay back ever

I'm sorry for this but for me its been a lot more than a ton.

Rawa materials are going thru some strange times now as well.

If you want all my tips just  check your PM and I will send you my # and lets talk a bit-I have some ideas

Now on a great story about bad clay from the later 80s .I once got many tons of bad porcelain clay from laguna (these where elery days for them). It bloated a lot at my usual mcone 10 soft 11 gas fires . I had lost 3 35 cubic foot car kilns loads. They asaid I was niot bisquing hot enough and not drinking enough tea and rubbing my head to much and using to much water and whatever else you could make up. It was a crital point for me and I knew I could not get satisfaction from them so it dawed on me I needed to feel better. Now I had met the owner and knew his dad as well I should add. I got three huge color TV boxes (you know thw old large TUBE TV boxes. I loaded 2 kiln loads of fired pots in those three boxed and used no padding at all in boxes and really tappeed them up. They filled my 3.4 ton truck bed and took them to UPS and sent then directly to the owner of Laguna. It cost well over 100$ in 1980 money. I felt great afterr that.Decades later I was at a wood fire gallery opening and my old Laguna friend (clay body guy John Pacina was there and after decades of phone talking we meet face to face at the opening in Eureka Ca,) I told him my old story-little did I know UPS took those huge heavy boxes upstaire to the owners office and left them. He came to work next day and got really mad as he had to pack them all to the dumpsters downstairs . He said I was famous after that incident at Laguna.I felt it needed doing as a full time who knows how to bisque and rub my head while drinking tea. I later became pretty good friends again with him but I will add I always felt better after sending those bad clay pots.He did have better respect for me after that

It made my point and they made some body changes and that fixed it for some more years

I ordered some red clay for a friend in so-cal last year and it was fuba as well. Saved him as they only had a small amout =so he got shorted with only a smaller amout of the stuff.

That said it can go sideways ina second.

 

[Callie Beller Diesel]

Mark, I feel better for you 30 years later, lol! I fully respect that level of petty.  I do feel bad for the UPS guys who had to pack that upstairs though.

(Insert official sounding disclaimer that we can’t officially endorse this etc etc here.)

[neilestrick]

The clay suppliers cannot control the quality of their raw materials, nor can they test each bag of raw materials, nor can they really inspect every batch of clay to find chunks in it, especially if the chunks not a certain percentage of the mix. It would be impossible to find them. They rely on their raw materials suppliers to provide quality materials, and they take a risk with every batch of clay they make. But it's they're job to acknowledge that there's a problem and make it right, either through refund or replacement, just like the raw materials suppliers will have to do for them. That's all they can do- be nice about it and make it right. If they can't do that, I would consider finding another supplier (I know that's not a simple thing). Clay is cheap, even when it's expensive, and replacing one ton isn't going to hurt their bottom line at all when they're selling a few million pounds a year.

I used to run the clay production lines at A.R.T. clay, and if we found a problem that was not the fault of the potter, we would replace the clay body. One person who bought 100 pounds and had a problem is probably not the clay's fault. Several reports from different studios is probably a clay problem. Chunks of rock would definitely fall into the replacement category, regardless of how many people found it. We once found a hole in the stainless steel liner of our mixer, meaning there was a quarter-sized piece of metal (or several smaller pieces) somewhere in the clay. Bad news. We had to throw out all the clay we had mixed since we last cleaned out the mixer completely and knew there wasn't a hole in it, something like 12,000 pounds.

[Min]

@NancyE, sorry for the late reply, I was away for a bit.

Since the beginning of this year I've had problems with 2 different claybodies from 2 different manufacturers. First issue was bits of metal in the clay which doesn't sound like your issue. Second problem was with a claybody that included small chunks of rock which sounds like it might be the same issue you are finding. This clay was from Tacoma Clay Art Center and the clay tech and I had several productive emails back and forth about it. Image below of a couple of the small chunks of rock I dug out of the clay. Is this similar to what you found?

Rae (clay tech at Tacoma Clay Art Center) and I both ran sieve tests on it and found chunks like this. Rae let me know they are having troubles with all their claybodies that contain Lincoln 60, to the point that they are running QC tests on all the new batches of it. She ran samples through a 60 mesh sieve and 4% of it didn't pass through. I would ask Aardvark if the Black Mountain contains Lincoln 60, might be a place to start.

[neilestrick]

On 8/14/2023 at 1:17 AM, Min said:

She ran samples through a 60 mesh sieve and 4% of it didn't pass through.

Wow, that's a lot! Equivalent to adding grog.

[Pyewackette]

I've been finding bits of sponge in my porcelain, and I thought that was annoying. Now I'm afraid to buy clay ... 

[Callie Beller Diesel]

Don’t be afraid to buy clay. You just have to remember it’s a product with ingredients that aren’t 100% uniform over time, and mixed by humans who have off days. It would be odder to not ever experience some kind of weirdness from time to time. If you find something, tell the manufacturer and the retail place you bought it from. They can’t fix a problem they don’t know about, and it’s a reasonable expectation for them to do something to make it right for you.

[Mark C.]

Clay is made from materials mined in the earth-they vary ,stuff is in it ,things happen. A few rocks or wood or whaterver is all part of it.

[Pyewackette]

@Mark C. Yes and that is why we were taught to wire wedge 50 years ago.  The wire would catch the odd twig or stone or other debris that might still be in the clay.

But to find a literal TON of clay full of feldspar chunks and things that you can't just pull out, things that change the character of the clay, in "modern times" as it were, is kind of disconcerting. I had no idea this sort of things was much of a problem any more.

I get why sponge bits end up in reclaim but I was surprised to find them in new clay LOL!

[Mark C.]

I'm never surprized anymore about stuff in clay-seen rocks, wood. cat poop,  silicone caulk.metal bits etc. Pay your money take your chances my old professor whould say.