Lithium substitute?

[LinR]

I  belong to a group that has used the following recipe for Red Tenmouku  for something like 30 years.  It has been reliable at cones 5&6,  electric and gas and on the various clays we use.  As we all know the price of lithium has gone sky high and a 5 gallon bucket will now cost in the region of $400.  Is there a less costly ingredient that we can use in the place of the lithium or can someone recommend an equally reliable Tenmouku for mid fire?

Red Tenmouku

Cornish stone         73.5

Whiting                         9.6

Colemanite                 3.3

Red Iron Oxide          9.1

Lithium                           4.5

Thanks for your help.

Lin

[neilestrick]

US Pigment has lithium carb for $65/lb, and that recipe only uses 1 pound for a 5 gallon bucket. Where's the $400 coming from?

[High Bridge Pottery]

How are you sourcing lithium? Should need around 500g for a 5 gallon bucket? Neil beat me to it  I wonder if you could use a lithium feldspar as a cheaper option and cut out some of the cornish stone? Depends on the KNa chemistry.

 

Had a quick go at the chemistry but you can never get that much lithium in the glaze from a feldspar without loads more silica and alumina.

I can get close with this but no idea if it is any cheaper.

Potash Feldspar - 22.5

Petalite - 44.5

Whiting - 9

Ferro Frit 3124 - 14.5

Red Iron Oxide - 9.5

 

Is the RIO/colemanite suspending the glaze or is the cornish stone a mix of feldspar and clay?

 

Edited February 18, 2023 by High Bridge Pottery

[Min]

@LinR, where are you buying your lithium carb from? Greenbarn price is $183.30 / 500 grams. I agree with you, maybe it's time to look for another recipe.

1 hour ago, neilestrick said:

US Pigment has lithium carb for $65/lb, and that recipe only uses 1 pound for a 5 gallon bucket. Where's the $400 coming from?

65 USD to CAD  makes that 87.50 CAD plus a couple percent for the transaction plus shipping plus duties plus Canadian taxes plus if a courier vs US Postal Service is used there will be their fee on top of that. If it's for a business there is also the joy of the paperwork declaring the products for a business when coming across the border if you have it shipped to a US address then drive down to pick it up. Still doesn't add up to $400 though.

[neilestrick]

42 minutes ago, Min said:

65 USD to CAD  makes that 87.50 CAD plus a couple percent for the transaction plus shipping plus duties plus Canadian taxes

Yeah, that was just the first place I saw a price. I failed to notice their location. Tucker's and PSH have it for $90/lb. 

[LinR]

Greenbarn is where the group get their materials.  I'll check again with the glaze chair.  $400 was what I was told.  Lin

[PeterH]

2 hours ago, LinR said:

Greenbarn is where the group get their materials.  I'll check again with the glaze chair.  $400 was what I was told.  Lin

This Greenbarn?

https://www.greenbarn.com/store/index.php?type=109&xyz=1

[High Bridge Pottery]

Looking at those prices and checking how much they sell 3124 it seems something like this could be cheaper. I am worried that the cornish stone has clay added to get the chemistry so not sure my recipe will suspend for very long in the bucket but even with 5kg petalite and 1.5kg 3124 it seems cheaper. Not sure how to add clay without adding too much Silica and Alumina. Might be worth testing if you have the materials already available in the studio.

[PeterH]

Any relevance?
Lithium Carbonate  200CND/Kg (shipping $12.50?)
https://psh.ca/products/lithium-carbonate-1

[Min]

I would be really doubtful the recipe uses colemanite. Greenbarn doesn't stock it and they haven't for years, I'm thinking Lin's studio uses gerstley borate in place of it. If this is the case then  the formula with gerstley borate has the boron at only 0.05 which in conjunction with the lithium makes me think this was a cone 10 glaze recipe that someone added the lithium in order to bring the firing down to ^6. 

Edited February 18, 2023 by Min
typos

[Mark C.]

Colemanite has not been around for a very long time=Gerstley Borate is still around. I bought a ton once long ago when it was going away before it came back. (long story from Laguna)

[Min]

I got the original recipe to come out pretty close using Ferro 3110 and a few other changes, included some epk to help suspend it. Sodium and potassium are different but the total of the two is the same. Ratios are the same also. If you have some spodumene already you could try a test with it however using Greenbarns pricing this actually works out more expensive than using lithium carbonate although the lithium from the spodumene will be less soluble than from the lithium carbonate. (like with any recipe, if you try it test a small amount first)

[Callie Beller Diesel]

@PeterHPSH is on the other side of the country from the OP. A bit closer would be Plainsman, and they’ve listed 2.5 kg at $619.35. Kinda better?

Plainsman may or may not ship to BC, but I know Ceramics Canada in Calgary will, or they’ll put things aside for you if you’re visiting family in town. They usually sell at about the same price. Lots of folks from BC order from Alberta to avoid the sales tax.

Adding or removing lithium is probably going to mess with glaze fit. Other questions for later rounds of testing might include whether or not the changed LOI will affect an iron red. I don’t know what this particular tenmoku turns out like, but speckling effects might change. 

[Hulk]

I'm using petalite for lithium, 18.9 petalite by weight ( 0.133 unity).
To get .23 unity would take a lot of petalite; no doubt spodumene a good call there.

Petalite was a bit cheaper per unit lithium when I was shopping, but I did pick it up at the supplier, eliminating shipping as a factor.
...where petalite was less than half the cost, has more than half the lithium and no foaming.
Greenberg's price difference is much bigger, but petalite probably not practical.
I use it for my liner glaze. I'm guessing the tiny black flecks here and there come from something in the petalite, but I don't mind them, and they don't seem to weaken the glaze, whatever it is.

[LinR]

Thanks for all your suggestions.  I shall relay them to the glaze chair.   And yes we have been using Gerstley Borate instead of Colemanite.  Lin

[High Bridge Pottery]

Not sure Spodumene is the best call if it works out around the same price. Is 44.5% Petalite really that impractical? A little Bentonite and some Epsom salts should probably suspend my recipe and add in the trace Magnesium. Hopefully the extra boron will counteract the extra Silica and Alumina.

[Hulk]

"Is 44.5% Petalite really that impractical?"

Oops! Perhaps not!
I did want to see some epk, per Min's suggestion.

I hadn't reread the whole thread last night, my bad High Bridge!
I'm liking petalite very well; it's working, it's a bit cheaper*, and no foaming/washing to do.

*well, it was, lithium carbonate is $43/lb ($32/lb if you buy ten pounds), spodumene sub $14/lb ($10/lb if you buy ten), petalite $5/lb ($4/lb if you buy ten) at the supplier that I drive by a few times a year (in Sacramento, US dollars).

[High Bridge Pottery]

It would be nice to add some clay  maybe if it is melting too much with the extra boron then a little could be added to the recipe.