Cannot decide which kiln to buy!

[ekua]

Hi there,

I've been a member for quite a while but this is my first time posting.

Up until recently I was in a communal studio but I am more than likely getting my own space in July.

I've been shopping around for kilns but I'm having a hard time making up my mind. 

First of all I'm not sure if I should get a L&L or a Skutt (I will be buying it brand new).

Secondly I'm having a hard time decided on the size. I'm not the tallest person and also have some lower back problems occasionally so I was thinking of getting a short model (Skutt KMT 1022 or 1218, or L&L e28s). Mostly looking for a kiln between 7-8 cubic feet as I will be doing a lot of production. My question with the wider shorter kilns, does it have a harder time reaching temperature due to the width?

Also is it worth it getting the 3" brick? I will be firing to cone 5.

I've only worked with a Skutt KM1027 which I like a lot but I'm afraid the height might bother me in the long run.

And one last questions regarding the touchscreen, I really like the way the Skutt KMT's look and I'm unsure about the Genesis Touchscreen Controller.

 

Thanks in advance for any opinions or experiences!

Ekua

[neilestrick]

@ekua I'm going to give you some info on sizes and such, but stay out of the discussion on which is 'better'.

Both the Skutt KM series and the L&L Easy Fire series are limited to pulling 48 amps of power. For most kilns in the series it's not a problem. If you're on regular household electrical service, 240 volts single phase, the only kilns that will have heating issues are the Skutt KM1227 or the L&L e28T (28" wide by 27" tall). At 10 cubic feet, they are under powered at 48 amps and won't get to cone 10. You want cone 10 even though you're firing to cone 5, as it allows for plenty of power for heavy loads, and will allow the elements to wear a bit before they need replacing. For those 10 cubic foot models you need to upgrade to a Skutt PK kiln or an L&L eQuad model. However that size kiln is too tall for you, so it's not an issue. Anything else in those series will be rated to cone 10, and the width will not be an issue.

The KM1218 or e28S are much easier to load than the KM1027 or e23T. However if you need a little more height, both companies now make an in-between size, the KM1222 or e28M, which are 22.5" deep and 8.5 cubic feet. Both are rated to cone 10, so you'll have no trouble with cone 5 firings and good element life.

Definitely get 3" brick. The extra insulation makes for less heat in the studio, and slightly lower firing costs. All 12 sided kilns are made with 3" brick anyway.

Get the touchscreen controller, regardless of which brand. Both are easy to use, and have the same circuit board. The interface is the only difference. The Skutt screen is larger and a holds your hand a little more with setting up the programming, but neither is difficult to use. I haven't used the Skutt enough to tell you specific differences, but I have lots of customers who use the Genesis, including many first time kiln users, and I never get calls asking for help. It's easier to use than the old style controllers. I think you'll be happy with either choice. I'd put the controller at the bottom of my list of things that would make me choose one over the other.

If you get an L&L and it's in your budget, I also recommend getting the quad elements. They last a lot longer than the standard elements, and will pay for themselves in longer life.

[ekua]

Thank you so much for all the helpful information @neilestrick
I will keep those in mind when making a choice! Whenever that might happen...

And thank for you for the quad elements tip! What exactly makes them last longer?

[neilestrick]

The length, coil spacing, and wire thickness.

[Mark C.]

I sent you a PM

welcome to the forum 

[ekua]

Tiny update! I will be buying an L&L now I'm just unsure about the size. Either the e28s or the e28m. Does anyone know if there are photos online of these standing next to a person?
It's really hard to figure this out without being able to see these in person!

[CactusPots]

Kind of a long way to go, but if you get to price shopping, you might consider Freeform Clay in National City.  My main man.  No sweat to give them a call.

[neilestrick]

2 hours ago, ekua said:

Tiny update! I will be buying an L&L now I'm just unsure about the size. Either the e28s or the e28m. Does anyone know if there are photos online of these standing next to a person?
It's really hard to figure this out without being able to see these in person!

The S kilns are 29 inches to the top edge of the wall. The M kilns are 4.5 inches taller than that. Stack up some cushions or boxes or something and see if you can reach in okay.

[Roberta12]

@ekua I checked with my 5ft 1 inch friend and she has the e23s with 3 inch brick.  It is comfortable for her to load.  I have the E23T and have over 800 firings on it, and I love it.  It's been a workhorse and my husband and I do all the maintenance on it. 

Roberta

[ekua]

Just wanted to give a quick update and thank you all for your input! I bought my very first L&L kiln I ended up getting the e28m and it is being built as we speak!

[VermontPotter]

@ekuaAnd are you happy with the L & L e28m?  I ask because I am heavily leaning toward the Skutt KMT-1222-3 with the touchscreen controller. I have some back issues and so I was looking at some of the front loading kilns but cannot make up my mind on them and think I'm too inexperienced yet with kilns to buy one of them because I'm worried about the controllers not being as easy to use...

Anyhow, I'm really curious if you have been happy with the L & L? 

Thanks!

Marc

[Chilly]

10 hours ago, VermontPotter said:

because I'm worried about the controllers not being as easy to use

I'm in the UK, so things may be different where you are, but I use a front-loading kiln at the community centre and a top-loading one at home.  They have different brand controllers.  But both controllers are pretty much the same in operation, and both are easy to use.

[Bam2015]

I have a L & L with 3" bricks and have been very happy with it. The controller could not be easier to use. I really dislike learning electronics so this is a great kiln for me. I am capable, just not interested.  

BTW, I bought the kiln based on Neil's recommendation. 

Betty

[neilestrick]

On 2/9/2022 at 12:57 AM, VermontPotter said:

I'm worried about the controllers not being as easy to use...

If you can use a smart phone you can use a kiln controller. Whatever you get, I highly recommend getting the touch screen controller. It's easier to use, in some ways easier than the standard controller, and has more options should you want them in the future. 

[DirtRoads]

I have 3 L&L Equad Pro's.   Model eq2827-3-240.    Have to be hard wired.

Bought them from Neil.

Could NOT be more pleased with this decision.    Entering my 11st year.   Very little maintenance ... once I figured out to NOT use that latch on front of kiln.  Just let the kilns rise normally from the heat, don't latch them down and you won't have any cracked tops, etc.  Do NOT close that little latch.   I use an extra set of advancer shelves across the top layer to keep heat in and keep any flakes from kiln lid from landing on top shelf.  Works perfectly  I use all advancer shelves and NEVER kiln wash.   Hit the run offs with a lava rock tool and that diamond tool you get from Advancer.   All graze removes.   Well enough nothing ever sticks .   Once in a while you get a glaze spot, which can be quickly polished off with a dremel.

I have Dynatrol Control Panels on all.   NOTHING could be easier.

I have done all work on those kilns myself and not because I am adept at such.  There is no one around here that knows what they are doing.    Basically, it comes down to changing elements and therma couples (easy).  Once or twice a fuse or relay switch and one set of new wiring on inside.    Very easy and self explanatory plus you can get help from Neil, L&L or other distriibutors that have technical knowledge.

Do I enjoy doing this?  NO.  My biggest problem is effectively using tools.    I'm simply not used to using things like screwdrivers, wretches, etc.  I have to say 'right to tight" "left to loose" every time I get near one.  But it's really not that much trouble.  The ease of replacing parts on L&L, is probably the only reason I made it in pottery.   In my area, there is no one to call.   It can be learned.

And I have put out some pottery on those things.   In my high time with more employees I was putting out 7 kilns of glaze a week,    You do one every other day and you have no wait on cooling.    And a spare 3rd kiln if you need to replace elements or something so you have no down time.   I do bisque in a Paragon ... the one they call the big and wide.   They put out about 300K of bisque with no problems.   When they start needing this and that changed, I just buy another one.    I'm on my 4th one now.   At least I recently found someone that wanted the old control boxes.  I have a kiln grave yard behind one of my old barns, as I also bought a few used kilns ... back before I learned.   I stick with the paragon because I just plug in a new one, no wiring and they fire consistently to cone 05 (changing to cone 06 now).  In this paragon I use corelight shelves that NEVER have glaze on them so no kiln wash.

 

[kswan]

@DirtRoads Oh no! I have the same size and model of the equad pro and have been using the latch! What goes wrong from using that? I've fired it about 25 times so far since I bought it. I work slowly but I got this so I would have long intervals between changing things out.

One thing happening was the lid started lifting away from the front edge of my top ring while cold ,so I used the latch to keep it down when firing. It was flat when I assembled it, and gradually it started making the gap in the front. I finally readjusted the bracket on the kiln so it sits flat again.  I hope I don't have to readjust the bracket every few times I fire, that would be rather annoying. The way it's constructed seems like it is liable to keep slipping down. 

Another thing that bothers me with my kiln is that the thermocouple protection tubes are open on the ends. All the little crusty bits falling off of them lands on the shelves and my ware. Most of the time it seems to happen after the glaze has set enough that it's not melted into it, but it doesn't make sense to have the protection tubes if they're not doing much protection. I have a second smaller kiln with the tubes that are closed therefore no thermocouple crust in the kiln. Any guesses why they are open on the ends now? More accurate reading?

Also, I am in the same boat as far as not being highly skilled in using tools, but I am enjoying learning. Actually, it turns out I'm better at using these things that I would have thought and end up using them the most around our house. 

[neilestrick]

8 hours ago, kswan said:

Oh no! I have the same size and model of the equad pro and have been using the latch! What goes wrong from using that? I've fired it about 25 times so far since I bought it. I work slowly but I got this so I would have long intervals between changing things out.

You should use the latch. That's why it's there. If the lid needs to lift, it can do it at the hinge. The main hinge rod sits in an elongated hole for that reason.

If you don't keep the body bands tight (check them every now and then), the bands can slip downward, which affects how the lid sits. If the lid is lifting at the front edge when cold, then the back edge has slid down, possibly from the body bands slipping, possible from the hinge plate screws not being tight. Screws loosen as the bricks move, so check them every couple of months and make sure everything is tight.

[kswan]

Thanks for that, Neil! I have been checking the body band screws and they have been tight. I didn't think to look at the ones for the hinge bracket. That seems to be what slipped I'll keep an eye on them from now on so I don't have to take it apart again. 

Kathy

[DirtRoads]

For some reason, the lid would slide down a bit ... this happened on all 3 of my L&L's and someone from L&L told me about this solution.    They said a customer told them about doing this.   I've replaced 3 top bands on the kilns  (you can call L&L and they can verify this along with quite a few fire bricks).   And once replaced an entire row of fire bricks.   I bought the bands because I really didn't want to fool with the fire bricks (didn't realize how easy it was to do it .....).  Then someone, that has this model told me to stop latching down the kilns.   I haven't had to replace a fire brick since.

But consider I've now pumped out over $2M of pottery on those kilns.   I love the L&L's and use that Paragon cheaper model ((TNF 27-3) for bisque only.   When the Paragon starts acting up, I just buy another one .... just throw the other one away.  I'm on my 4th ...  in 11 years.    I just gave someone 3 old Paragon control boxes.     I will always regret not buying that Dragon model (went there to get a Dragon but got the TNF because it just "plugs in".)     You have to consider the use, and I should never have gone with this model.  Most likely, if I had brought a top quality Paragon like a Viking or Dragon, I would still be using them.  

Have never even considered just throwing away an L&L because they can easily be fixed & maintained.  I have 3 quad's, same model and  consider them extremely low maintenance.   I use Advancer shelves on the very top, to avoid any flaking and I suppose it retains most of heat that might be lost from not using the latch.

@Neilstrick .... I know you know the product line and are extremely knowledgeable in this area.     Would NEVER discount your advise but wondering, if you actually use this Quad Pro model?     One of my friends bought one and had the same issue starting with top ring.       Used this same solution and have never had to actually replace a fire brick, much less an entire ring.   Just saying, if you see ANY cracking on top band, remember this idea.

I have ZERO electrical/mechanical ability and have maintained the 3 L&L's with no professional ever coming to my studio because there isn't one in my area, that I know of.    Consider they cost what?  $4Kish?   A remarkable investment of $12K for $2M plus production.   Even the 4 Paragons which cost around $3Kish.... looking at a $25K investment to $2M ratio  .. which is what?   .01%    

I love the L&L Quad Pro long lasting elements and sturdiness of all components.   Probably wouldn't have stuck in the business without them.     I've slowed down production from my peak, and would only need 2 glaze and 1 bisque kiln now.     I suppose I could bisque in one of the L&L's now if this Paragon plays out but probably won't.   I use Corelight shelves in that Paragon that have never had one spec of glaze of them.   I never kiln wash.    No kiln wash on my Advancers that go in the L&L's either.   In the past, I would have all 4 of those kilns at some stage.   I never run more than one kiln at a time.   I have a 100% "out of code" set up because I'm in a rural area that has no codes.    These kilns total  234 amps and I'm on a 200 amp meter.   It is imperative that I would not run all at once.   And sometimes a central air unit and a dryer could run too.   I'm 100% aware and run ONE.    According to load, I could run 2 but never have.   But then you think, you've got always got kilns in stages of cooling, so only running 1 at a time doesn't really cause down  time.

No idea why my lids just kept too much pressure on top ring.  But this helped stop the problem.   Along with not latching, have never replaced another fire brick or top ring.

  (if you never see a crack, then don't worry about it but I was tired of buying and replacing top rings).

Highly recommend & thank you @neilstrick for telling me about them and thank you L&L.    And by the way,  I am not a hobby ceramist.

Cheers.

Sharon Grimes

 

[DirtRoads]

The back fire bricks have been replaced.   No cracking after a number of uses.    Need to replace those front three ..... will get to it.    Other picture is my kiln set up.  3 L&L's  & 1 Paragon.     Anyone see any problems, please suggest.

Oh you mentioned height ... I have to stand on those concrete blocks to reach bottom shelf.  And I take  extra care not lean on kiln top.

[Dick White]

Sharon, that picture 2 posts up is the exact solution we came to with the L&L 28s we had at the community college. We got tired of resetting the screws on the lid bracket to lift the back edge up where it belongs, so we propped cinder blocks and shims from broken shelves under it to keep it from sliding down. Haven't had a problem in 10 years now.

dw

[kswan]

@DirtRoads So it was the top ring that cracked, and not the lid itself? I haven't seen any cracks in the ring bricks, then again I haven't fired it much yet. I haven't done much work this winter.

Aha, keeping some blocks under the bracket to hold it in place! That's a good idea. My kiln vent is right under my bracket, so I'd have to use two stacks.  I just went and measured, and the top ring band sits about 1/8th inch lower than in the front. It was sliding down even though the bolts to tighten it are as far as they'll go. I wonder, will the ring keep slipping downward every time I open the lid?  Or maybe it settles to a certain point and stays there? I look at that bracket and it doesn't seem like the most stable design somehow.  The slots are really long. It brings to mind this dumb small vacuum I have that has parts that are supposed to fit together with friction. It always falls apart as you're moving around with it.  

My old manual kiln of the same size didn't have a spring hinge, and it never had the front lift problem. It didn't have a latch either. 

[neilestrick]

2 hours ago, DirtRoads said:

@Neilstrick .... I know you know the product line and are extremely knowledgeable in this area.     Would NEVER discount your advise but wondering, if you actually use this Quad Pro model?     One of my friends bought one and had the same issue starting with top ring.       Used this same solution and have never had to actually replace a fire brick, much less an entire ring.   Just saying, if you see ANY cracking on top band, remember this idea.

Yes, I do own that same Quad Pro, and yes, I have heard of people using the cinder blocks. It's not the Quad Pro model that's the issue, it's all the 28" diameter models from every brand. The lid is heavy, and can cause the hinge plate or body band to slide down. I always keep my lid closed when not in use, so maybe that helps, maybe not. Keeping all the bands and screws good and tight should prevent it, but there's nothing wrong with supporting it like that. You could also add another set of screws to the hinge plate. Whatever works. If the lid is in the correct position- sitting flat on the top ring when the kiln is cold, then the latch is going to keep it from raising up and letting out a lot of heat when it's firing. However, if the hinge has sagged, which causes the front edge to raise up, then using the latch would be forcing the lid down and putting a lot of stress on it and possibly cracking the lid or the top bricks along the back edge. But if everything is sitting properly when the kiln is cold then there's no reason to not use the latch.

[DirtRoads]

2 hours ago, kswan said:

@DirtRoads So it was the top ring that cracked, and not the lid itself? I haven't seen any cracks in the ring bricks, then again I haven't fired it much yet. I haven't done much work this winter.

Aha, keeping some blocks under the bracket to hold it in place! That's a good idea. My kiln vent is right under my bracket, so I'd have to use two stacks.  I just went and measured, and the top ring band sits about 1/8th inch lower than in the front. It was sliding down even though the bolts to tighten it are as far as they'll go. I wonder, will the ring keep slipping downward every time I open the lid?  Or maybe it settles to a certain point and stays there? I look at that bracket and it doesn't seem like the most stable design somehow.  The slots are really long. It brings to mind this dumb small vacuum I have that has parts that are supposed to fit together with friction. It always falls apart as you're moving around with it.  

My old manual kiln of the same size didn't have a spring hinge, and it never had the front lift problem. It didn't have a latch either. 

I seem to recall one of the lids with some cracking at the back near the hinge years ago.       Can't remember if I replaced a lid though and went  and checked the kiln graveyard and didn't see an L&L lid there.  I'm sort of ashamed of the wasted parts back there.   The most cracking is like the picture .... top edge.   As this problem got fixed with the concrete blocks years ago, I can't remember exactly.   Just been putting off replacing those last few bricks for years.    Got to think about this happened early on in my pottery business.   Today, I would know to just replace the fire bricks on top.    (wow ... didn't realize I had as many pieces back in that kiln graveyard .... it's behind some sheds at the back of my property that backs up to a swamp ... no one ever sees that area & I haven't looked there in years)

As Neil said, if it was level, the latch would work fine.      I have tried the latch in years.      If something works, I'm usually not game to change it.   But I can see what he is talking about.   I'm just glad I'm not the only person that engages the concrete blocks to support the lid.

[Jen WC]

Hi All,
I´m on the hunt for a kiln again - this time definitely buying new.  Since I´m in Denmark, there`s a slim chance I can get an L&L - though that would be my first choice from my experience as well as what others say in comments. One thing that I recently listened to on Youtube was a video about different kilns and there it was recommended to go for the L&L eQuad  in part because it has several thermocouples so more sensitivity and more precise reactions to deliver the right amount of heat in the right area to provide the best conditions for the ware. Since I can`t expect to get an L&L without paying equal to a top of the line BMW - reason being that Great Britain is no longer in the EU, where I would not have to pay customs duties (which, in Denmark, are on top of the sum of the kiln plus the freight cost plus the sales tax (VAT of 25% in Denmark!!) So, yeah.
The alternative I found is a SKUTT kiln that has what they call "Zone Control".  But here is the dilemma: in describing their kiln with 3 thermocouples, Skutt pretty much discourages it flat out. I am looking for your wisdom on this subject. The language from Skutt is below. Is there a significant difference between the L&L eQuad design and the Skutt Zone Control design? In my simplicity, it seems that either what Skutt writes applies to both kiln types/brands OR there are issues specific to Skutt OR Skutt doesn`t make a real profit on this newer kiln version. WISE ONES - What do you think?? 
"Pros

• More Even Firing Top To Bottom – Often necessary when firing very tall pots or working with extremely sensitive material like thick glass projects.
• Your Friends Will Think You Are Really Cool – Do not discount this. Your cool factor will go up like 10 fold.

Cons

• Longer Firing Times – Because the elements need to cycle off more to retain uniformity, your firing times will be extended.
• Shorter Relay Life – Standard relays (Not Mercury relays which are standard on all PK kilns) will cycle more often and therefore have a shorter life.
• More Thermocouple Maintenance – Well, there are 3 so you do the math. It is really important to use cones in every firing to monitor the accuracy of the thermocouples. If one starts to go before the others it can actually make Zone Control fire your kiln UNEVEN.
• Shorter Element Life – At high temperatures it can be difficult for the elements to keep up with the program when they start to wear. Therefore you will most likely get an error message that shuts down the firing sooner in the life of the elements then if you did not have Zone Control. You can turn Zone Control off and milk a little more life out of them.
• More Difficult to Diagnose Problems – Since more is going on during the firing often times it makes troubleshooting more difficult but not impossible"
  
  THANK YOU IN ADVANCE!!
  JEN