Cannot decide which kiln to buy!

[neilestrick]

27 minutes ago, Jen WC said:

The alternative I found is a SKUTT kiln that has what they call "Zone Control".  But here is the dilemma: in describing their kiln with 3 thermocouples, Skutt pretty much discourages it flat out. I am looking for your wisdom on this subject. The language from Skutt is below. Is there a significant difference between the L&L eQuad design and the Skutt Zone Control design? In my simplicity, it seems that either what Skutt writes applies to both kiln types/brands OR there are issues specific to Skutt OR Skutt doesn`t make a real profit on this newer kiln version. WISE ONES - What do you think?? 

I've never understood why Skutt discourages zone control. I think it's mostly because L&L and ConeArt and Bailey use it on all their kilns, and Skutt never has, so it's a marketing thing. In response to their arguments against it:

1. Longer firing times will only happen if you're trying to fire very quickly, and is more likely an issue in a large kiln. With typical firing schedules it's not an issue at all, but when you ramp the kiln very fast at high temps it's more likely for the middle to get hotter than the top and bottom, so the controller has to slow down the firing a bit in order to keep things even. IMO, evenness is more important than speed if you want your work to look good.

2. Shorter relay life with zone control is not true in all kilns. In my experience, L&L relays last every bit as long as Skutt relays, and often longer because the L&L control box is vented better, and heat kills relays. However in a Skutt with zone control they may no last as long as in a Skutt without zone control. Relays are cheap, though, if you don't buy them from the kiln manufacturer, about $14 each online. You could also install a computer fan in the control box to keep things cooler. 

3. Yes, you'll spend more on thermocouples, but they are cheap in the big picture. Sell 2 mugs and you pay for them. Worth it IMO in order to have even firings, and probably cheaper in the long run because of not having to refire pots that were underfired due to the bottom of the kiln running cool without zone control. Uneven firings due to thermocouples being out of whack is not an issue once you calibrate them because they wear out at the same rate.

4. Elements in zone control kilns last just as long as single zone kilns. I really don't know where they got this idea. L&L, ConeArt, and Bailey kilns have the same element life as Skutt kilns.

5. I repair kilns for a living, and this is not an issue at all. If a thermocouple is reading goofy, the controller will tell you which one is having a problem.

I hope this helps. Skutt makes good kilns, and I think you'll be very happy with zone control.

[oldlady]

Jen, if all things are equal in your mind, choose the L&L.   the reason is that there may come a day when you want to fix your kiln yourself.  the L&L is simple.  in addition, the bricks are different around the elements.   L&L uses much sturdier channels for the elements to be inside of.  if you have ever seen a kiln whose user (s) banged a shelf into the walls while removing it, you have seen the trouble that can cause the softer bricks.  kilns can suffer untold damage from people who think "it is brick, it is strong, i can use a forklift to pick it up"  or other misconceptions.  

just my opinion after using my own and  knowing of many kilns owned by others.   edit:  yes, i did read that a skutt is COOL.   idiotic marketing, insulting the buyer.

 

[Jen WC]

Niels, Thank you so much for your concise answers.  They really caught the reason for my writing. Skutt´s remarks were real turn-offs and so different from other information. Thanks for clearing that up.  That said, have you had any direct or second-hand information about Skutt´s kiln that has the Zone Control? I imagine that this design would involve slightly different engineering. Kind of like, there are some planes that Boeing makes which have history of good safety and some - not so much. I wonder if anyone has actual experience with the Zone Control models. . . . . 

To Old Lady from a Sometimes-I-Feel-Old-Lady, Thank you too.  I love the design for elements, though I have never put it into words. I think the special ceramic that holds the elements must be patented or the other kiln manufacturers would be copying it. I am also a fan of venting from the bottom, though not sure there is a big advantage when there are sufficient elements and zone control. I wonder.

As far as all things being equal, they aren`t. I am shooting to get an L & L via a local (sounds small but it is THE supplier in Denmark and Sweden) company but they haven`t answered me yet. The company in the UK suggested that I contact the Danish company, which is NOT an L&L carrier, to see if they would work together with the UK to get me the kiln. Goodness knows how much this will all cost me. That is why I´m looking at the Skutt.  A Swedish company sells them so no customs duties since Sweden is in the EU (originally EU was simply a trade organization sand one benefit is that customs is not required when purchases are made within the EU countries).  
Regards from the Lilliput.

[Denice]

 I have been a potter for 50 years and I have owned several different brands of kilns.  None of them have been computerized,  they are a basic kiln.  My Skutt is a 1027 and I have  had it for thirty years.    I use to have a ceramic shop put new elements in it and do any necessary work it needed.   My husband retired  a few years ago and my Skutt needed new elements and the kiln sitter repaired.   He had never worked on my kilns before,  he looked at the manual and watched some video's online.  When we got it put back together and he said it was a easy kiln to work on,   I would never have to take a kiln to a shop again.  I think you would be happy with a Skutt.     Denice

[neilestrick]

10 hours ago, Jen WC said:

I think the special ceramic that holds the elements must be patented or the other kiln manufacturers would be copying it.

It would require a fairly big change in their production system for another company to start using them, and would basically be saying that L&L had been making better kilns all these years.

10 hours ago, Jen WC said:

I am also a fan of venting from the bottom, though not sure there is a big advantage when there are sufficient elements and zone control.

Downdraft vents don't really do that much in terms of helping a kiln to fire more evenly. They help a little, but they're not going to fix any problems. They do help extend element life, though, and greatly reduce kiln corrosion due to fumes and moisture, as well as improve the look of your glazes.

I work on a few Skutt kilns with zone control, and they work great. They act like a normal Skutt it every way, they just have more zones. You would be happy with a Skutt, they are nice kilns.

[Jen WC]

On 3/8/2022 at 2:39 PM, neilestrick said:

It would require a fairly big change in their production system for another company to start using them, and would basically be saying that L&L had been making better kilns all these years.

Downdraft vents don't really do that much in terms of helping a kiln to fire more evenly. They help a little, but they're not going to fix any problems. They do help extend element life, though, and greatly reduce kiln corrosion due to fumes and moisture, as well as improve the look of your glazes.

I work on a few Skutt kilns with zone control, and they work great. They act like a normal Skutt it every way, they just have more zones. You would be happy with a Skutt, they are nice kilns.

Yes, I realized that afterward. If all else is good in the kiln (which isn`t always the case) then the heat shouldn`t be collecting at the top but it seems logical that this could be a problem. The corrosion part was a thing for me too though. I have since asked around here whether the local, and really ONLY,  manufacturer - has 95% of the market in the land of love-of-nation and they know nothing of zone controlling, down-drafts or, it seemed, active venting of a kiln. When you have everything, you don`t need to think of everything, I guess.   Since part of the trick I am dealing with is getting  2 bids from vendors using the exact-same specs and L & L had to be taken off the table. It will remain a distant dream. Skutt is an option. But the "business" people responsible for deciding if I get a stipend or not to cover some costs apparently don`t know that many brans/manufacturers have deals with their vendors that are regional. To go with Skutt, I can get a bid from Sweden but the next-closest distributor would be in France - they aren`t going to give me a bid when they know I won`t be buying from them. A bit ridiculous. So I have so far found, I hope, a work around for a Nabertherm top oven where purchasing their most recent, and best, controller (not anything like the L&L choices but . . . accept the things I cannot change. . . ) should give me greater ability to have manual or automatic monitoring of more than one area of the kiln. Won`t know more until I speak with them in the morning.  Thankfully, or maybe not, prices are not decided at the local level. Manufacturer decides. No sales, no discounts no nothing. But, suddenly, 2 bids just got a lot easier! I will send the prices along with the specs and ask each vendor to put their names on and send them back to me. 

What a world we live in!  Thanks again for the tips/education!