Pyewackette

Certainly glaze is A way to treat the surface. Just not the only way.

@Pres - never said you did. Was responding mostly to this and similar comments: I find the clay body itself most interesting. Glaze just covers up the beauty of the clay itself. Don't get me wrong - I like a nice glaze, especially on utilitarian pieces like cups and bowls. But when I CAN get away without it to show the clay itself, I'm happiest.

My dad's first car was a model T. It might not have had a carburetor at all (I have no idea what those things involved other than having to crank the engine with a literal crank). One of my first cars had a manual choke. That was fun.

I don't see how they can be separated. Also - surface doesn't HAVE to mean glaze.

Wait - do cars still HAVE carburetors?

So I did find this in one of the manuals for the kiln controller: If sulfur erodes the thermocouple, I would imagine its not great for the elements either?

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of clay has iron in it, even our studio "white" stoneware has enough iron that it turns pink in bisque. Maybe porcelain is iron free. Now I feel like I have to find a youtube video of someone vacuuming their elements ...

@LeeU @Mark C. From the Adancer FAQ pages: There are similar statements for the Bailey Thermal-Lites. I don't know what "fast heating" is relative to "normal heating" in a kiln, but apparently ramping up more than 275 dF per hour is too fast. I don't know what the preset programs are for L&L kilns, I haven't found anywhere that calls that out yet. The programs must be described in a manual somewhere. Where I live there is little to no humidity most of the year. Shelves when not in use will be stored on, well, other shelves LOL! At any rate not on the floor. Ok to store them flat or should they go on edge? There's no way I will be lifting the kiln lid to peek or anything else along those lines. I have no problem whatsoever waiting for the kiln to cool off naturally. I will have a kiln vent and a kiln controller ala the version sold by L&L. I'm not exactly sure what "pulling a damper too fast cool a downdraft" entails, but it doesn't sound like something I'd be likely to do. It doesn't sound like something that is a normal part of waiting for your kiln to cool naturally. I'm good with doing what the manual says to do. The kiln I ordered is an L&L Quad Pro which probably uses the same programs as an EZ Fire. I've had my hands full recently landscaping my son's yard as well as my own, I need to sit down and find the operating manual and start reading it for this kiln. Thanks.

@fergusonjeff That's a relief. At $3k each it would have paid me to drive there and pick them up LOL! The size I need are $388 each at Bailey's or $470 each for the Advancers (not counting shipping). $2600ish for shipping per each did sound frighteningly high LOL! Does the requirement not to heat them up to fast mean I can't use the preset firing programs?

@Mark C. Thanks. I had not thought of differing costs of shipping and handling/packaging. The Baileys are almost $100 cheaper pre shelf - it had not occurred to me that the shipping etc might more than make up for the difference in absolute price. I'll check this coming week.

John Britt has the book on his website: The Quest for the Elusive Leaf Bowl and other Selected Articles I just realized the title is actually using "Illusive" but I'm pretty sure he meant Elusive, as in hard to track down rather than "illusory" or false. I also just learned that John Britt is from my neck of the woods (Ohio, Daytonish). I haven't lived there since the late 80s, but still.

I grew up in Tornado Alley. We had an old cistern in the basement with a hole cut in the side which we used as our tornado shelter. I wasn't the oldest but somehow I was the one responsible for taking care of all the rest. I used to keep that cistern stocked with fresh water and clean blankets and new batteries for the radio I kept in there every spring. Tornadoes still terrify me to this day. Hurricanes - not so much. You have plenty of time to get away from a hurricane. Tornadoes are totally unpredictable. Tornadoes are occurring with greater frequency, more power, and not limited to traditional tornado "seasons" or areas any more. Plus things like "derechos" and landspouts. Climate change is a bear. Stay safe as possible.

Congratulations on reaching your clay goals! You managed it 20 years sooner than I did LOL!

@LeeU I am 5'2" (still, apparently shrinkage is yet in my future, or else I've been wrong about my height all these years). I still got the 3 level kiln. I'm used to being short by now LOL! But no, I was not looking forward to heavy kiln shelves either. The weight in and of itself was perhaps not QUITE enough to sway me towards these, but the advantages of the relative imperviousness in the face of glazing accidents certainly tipped the balance. Now that I'm improving physically and I'm stronger, the weight alone is still not the deciding factor but - oddly enough, perhaps due to 20 years of being almost totally sessile - somehow I appreciate the lighter weight even more. Even though I am once again boggling the minds of young men in feed stores as I stride off with a 50 lb bag of something slung over my shoulder. But my lower back muscles are not what they once were, before I was brought low. ALL my muscles are pretty much noodles now. I was sadly confiding in my son the other day (I've been landscaping his yard for him, in tandem with landscaping my own yard as well) that here I am up and about and active as the day is long (literally) and I've gained weight. He looked at me incredulously and said, "Mom. You know this. It's MUSCLE coming back." It is really starting to sink in on me how big this kiln is going to be. I've got to get busy so I can fill it up! But first I need the shelves. I just don't know how many I should get. I'm thinking all full shelves - because I'm cheap and the 2 half shelves cost a lot more than one full shelf. But how many? And how much extra furniture?

@Mark C. @LeeU and @anybody else who has Advancers or the Thermal-Lites from Bailey - I have an Equad Pro eQ2827-3 on its way. Yup. I bought a ginormous kiln instead of the little one I originally planned on. I still hope to eventually get the little one (I have uses for it) but due to apparent electrical weirdness of this house and others nearby apparently due to builder cutting corners and outright not meeting code, I no longer trust the wiring in the walls (I was going to use an existing dryer plug for the little kiln) so I went with the big 'un, given I have to wire something in new to be sure its safe. At least until I have the existing wiring checked by a professional. Anyway. That kiln takes a shelf with a diameter of 25.5" if I am reading the diagrams correctly. But both the Thermal-Lites and the Advancers come in 26". Close enough? The Thermal-Lites are almost $100 per shelf cheaper. Is there a clear difference between the 2 brands? Mark C, I've seen a post from you about getting some of these Thermal Lites but I couldn't find a follow up post. If you were buying new shelves, would you still have so many Advancers or would you go with the Thermal-Lites now? Lee U., how are you liking your shelves so far? Anybody else using these or similar shelves? These are the only 2 I've found enough info on to be relatively certain they won't end up warping at the drop of a hat. How many shelves should I be buying? I also wonder now if I got enough kiln furniture LOL! I guess I will have to have a cutoff switch installed - I had planned on that anyway - so I can be sure power is cut off to the kiln when moving shelves in or out as I don't want to electrocute myself. Where I live is pretty dry so - I don't think I'll have problems with the shelves getting wet or damp due to humidity. They will be stored up off the floor in my garage (which is also where the kiln is going, sadly). I read the Advancer blurb about not firing at more than 275F per hour "up to 1000F". Does that mean I need custom firing schedules? I assume cooling would need to be similarly slow though they don't specifically say (that I can find). Bailey also makes a comment about not fast firing or "crash cooling" but they don't go into detail. How will this change usual firing schedules? How may this effectively limit the capabilities/usage of the kiln? Wow. I am really getting a kiln after all these years.

@dexter7205 I'm no expert but given the requirement that it survive and operate in FIRE I would say there is no fixing it. The stresses of uneven woodfired *or charcoal* heating and cooling are already significant, a repair just wouldn't survive, I don't think.

Seems like a good thing to have ... I may be a nervous Nellie, but I'd like to have that.

You know one of those wooden half-barrels they sell as planters might make a pretty good mold ... I think a full size one might be too big but sometimes you can find smaller ones. They're not really usually half-whiskey barrels any more, they're usually purpose-made (and much flimsier as planters).

what @PeterH said. Clay shrinks as it dries. If you put it on the OUTSIDE of a mold, it will crack as it shrinks because it gets smaller but the mold doesn't. If you put it on the INSIDE, the mold still won't shrink, but the clay will and it should release naturally as it shrinks. Though if the mold is "sticky" you may still get some cracking if it doesn't pull away evenly as it shrinks. Should probably use a mold release, which doesn't have to be a chemically thing called "mold release" that you have to buy, but I'm not sure mustard oil is the best thing either. Somebody who does molds would obviously know a lot better than me LOL!

Well that wasn't intimidating. Nope. NOT AT ALL! JK. I feel you on the health-caused hiatus and losses. It's good to get back on your feet again, isn't it? I didn't think I ever would, it had been such a long decline. I told my DIL yesterday, it's good to have energy again and I intend to USE IT ALL UP every single day! But I don't think I will ever approach those levels of expertise. I'm having such a hard time imagining how you do all that fine detail. Its not the kind of thing the local pottery studio offers classes in LOL!

Or try newspaper instead of a paper towel. It's smoother and less likely to tear or stick to the clay. Not the glossy kind.

You know I used to stress a lot about being "original". Then I finally realised, creativity in human endeavour pretty much precludes true originality. Somebody somewhere is bound to have had the same thought and applied it, and most likely hundreds or even thousands (or more) of times. I insisted on equating "original" with "unique". You can have a thought that is original TO YOU even when that thought has already made the rounds of other creative individuals for the last ten thousand years. Learning a new technique doesn't make you a copycat. Because once you have learned that technique, you will be applying it with different hands, a different mindset, a different aesthetic, different materials, different equipment. It is yours simply because YOU are different than whoever you learned the technique from.

SO FINALLY got that measured. It is 247! So much for my engineering neighbor's estimation LOL! He may have been going by what is written on the box and the HVAC as well though. 247 and 124.2 on one leg and 123.6 on the other. Ish. The latter jumped around a bit. The TWO latters. 247 measured on the 600V setting and the other two on the 200V setting for increased "accuracy" (or at least an extra decimal place). I feel better now. Now I just have to figure out if I need this stuff, because my power here flips on and off for a few minutes at a time all the time. It'll usually do that several times in a 2 to 3 hour period, then it quits - until the next time it decides to play hide-the-power with me. The equipment in question: https://hotkilns.com/noise-filter It says on the L&L website: I don't know about noise on the line, but I do get frequent short periods of power outages. Just had one the other day in fact. Often when these occur the power will go on and off for a few minutes at a time for 2 or 3 hours. Then L&L goes on to say: https://hotkilns.com/support/pottery-kiln-knowledgebase/how-handle-power-interruptions-blackouts-and-bad-electrical Quote from the above: If I need that I would rather have it installed at the factory, anybody out there have similar issues with their power and a kiln? Pye

@Jose Keep in mind, if you are thinking plaster bats, that is going to reduce the amount of clay you can throw. I STRONGLY suggest you go with the Whisper, not the VL-Lite. I only bought my VL-Lite because at the time I didn't know the roughly-half rule of thumb and thought it really would handle 25 lbs. Plaster bats are heavy. You're going to reduce the amount of clay you can throw by probably about a third, or close to it. So you're looking at maybe 8 to 10 or at most 12 lbs tops, and probably not tops, what with the weight of the bat. You would be pushing that wheel to its utter limits ALL THE TIME. The upgrade to the Whisper is WELL worth it, really. A 2' square chamber ain't nuthin'. You can get pretty big pieces in there. I really do like my VL-Lite and respect it for what it can do but mostly what it can do is mugs and small to medium size bowls. Don't limit yourself to the capabilities of that wheel. If your situation changes, the Whisper will let you stretch more and its just a better drive (direct drive instead of belt drive). And if it doesn't - you've still got a better wheel that you don't have to baby. TL;DNR synopsis : Still recommending the Whisper for you; Recommending Pure & Simple bat molds and Hydrostone-not-Hydrocal-not-#1-potters-plaster for bats; recommending Hardiebacker-Tile-Backer-Board-not-Siding-not-Durock for ware boards. As for plaster bats, I'm a fan. Of Hydrostone. It is harder than the #1 potter's plaster for one thing. It is less prone to chip or flake or any of the other bad things plaster pottery stuff can do over time. It's lighter weight. Stronger AND lighter weight, always a good combination in my opinion, LOL! I kind of wish that for myself in fact. Also just to be sure - that is HydroSTONE not HydroCAL. The Hydrocal is a lot softer and not suitable for these purposes. I'm pretty sure its not even as hard as #1 potter's plaster. So STONE not CAL. I had some Hydrobats years ago and I loved them. Stuff pops off lickety split. I'm afraid they've been lost in one of my many moves since then - I haven't come across them again yet (still unpacking from my last move which occurred under emergency circumstances). But you can buy molds from Pure & Simple and make your own, which is my plan when I can make a clay buying trip (clay and Hydrostone buying trip I guess). I really like that keying system. Fumbling around trying to find the bat pins - really annoying. I like hardiebacker for ware boards because they are thinner, lighter weight, and schleppable, as opposed to any sort of plaster. The one thing they don't do as well if you treat them just like plaster is drying your slops - they're too thin. A half-inch (really .42") piece of hardiebacker board doesn't have near the mass of a 3" thick slab of plaster, so I used to dry my slops in strips, otherwise it wouldn't dewater in the middle as fast as the edges. Recently someone on the list (maybe @Callie Beller Diesel or @Min ?) described slapping their slops onto cloth over wire shelves by the handful - which is probably how I'll treat stuff from now on when I have slops to dewater on Hardiebacker. I don't think I want to give the stuff up in favor of a much heavier plaster slab for that purpose, and I am pretty sure layering it won't have the same effect (to get it thicker) as something that's 3" thick and of a piece. But dewatering in strips worked pretty well so I bet dewatering by the handful ought to work even better. That is the Hardiebacker board for putting under tile, not the siding, and not any other tile backer like Durock or something. They are just cement with some fiber in them and they're crumbly and fragile. The Hardiebacker is a pain to cut - basically you either score and snap, which I found difficult, or use something like an angle grinder with a masonry blade and wear GOOD DUST PROTECTION, but my preferred method (as soon as I an find my good DeWalt drill that's powerful enough to drive it) are these shears (PacTool Snapper Shears for cutting fiber cement) specifically for cutting it. No dust that way and more even edges than any other method I've used. Ware boards, unlike a dewatering slab, don't need to be thick. You could probably get by with the smaller .25" (really .25") hardiebacker but the price difference isn't enough for me to have bothered, I just use the half inch (really 0.42") for everything. I've been using it at the studio where they lost nearly all their ware boards in the changing of the guard. Prior to that I was having to dry stuff on PLASTIC (not plaster like I wrote first) bats and that was a big fat fail. Then the clay has changed and its a lot wetter, not so much short anymore. I've had better luck drying on my hardiebacker ware boards but still some weirdness which I have determined is due to some people coming in and leaving the door open. The drying racks are right next to the door and the wind (we get a lot of that here) was just sucking the moisture right out of the clay right through the plastic bags it seemed. But we're in to cooling season now (it was 95F yesterday) so hopefully that has stopped. But I'm pretty sure the last bowl I put in the kiln has, or will, come out with a crack in the bottom because it was subjected to the Great Outdoors that way. At any rate I've been using hardiebacker for ware boards pretty frequently (even if we don't include that huge gap between now and the last time I could work regularly) and I love them. I couldn't say whether stuff dries more evenly on hardiebacker or hydrostone but the hardiebacker takes up less space and weighs less. But I will make wet and dry boxes with the Hydrostone when I get things whipped in to shape around here and post clay-and-Hydrostone-buying trip.

Skutt is what used to be Thomas Stuart, right? Those are the ones I lust after. But $2000 - $2500 is a bit much for me. If I outgrow the studio Whispers, maybe then I could justify going that high. But until then I'll just throw small stuff at home on my VL-Lite and bigger stuff at the studio on a Whisper. Btw Skutt/Stuart does make a Prodigy model which is NOT REVERSIBLE which makes that absolutely out in my book just for that reason alone. I throw backwards. All attempts to rejoin the herd on this issue have been utter failures. I just throw backwards. Besides which I can't see spending almost $1400 on a wheel that lacks a simple reversal switch anyway. Plus they state the "throwing" limit is 75 lbs. They do say throwing instead of centering but I'm not sure you can really throw 75 lbs on that wheel, the motor's not that big (1/4? 1/3 HP?). But that model aside, I do lust after one or another of the wheels formerly known as Thomas Stuart. I like the SSX drive. I like the EW Cuphead system (HYDROBATS FOREVER!). I like the big splash pans and the removable wheel head (I think you can do that on a Soldner as well, one of the better Soldners would be a good wheel too, I'm pretty sure it's Tim See who has one and loves it to death) But if I were going to buy a new wheel, now, today, it would be a Shimpo Whisper. Honestly, at my age, recent health improvements notwithstanding, I doubt I'm likely to outgrow that wheel or even push its upper limits. I guess only time will tell. EDIT: Actually, now I may be lusting after a Soldner. Smoooooth sounds good too. And you can still make custom hydrobats with that plaster bat making system, the name of which of course escapes me right at the moment. And Tim See's Soldner video seems to demonstrate quietness, which is a big plus for me ... plus no proprietary parts ... maybe I would get a Soldner S100 if I were buying today ... SO FICKLE, me!