nancylee Posted December 31, 2016 Report Share Posted December 31, 2016 But i don't have an extruder. Am thinking of buying one, but don't know if I'd find enough to make to make it worth it. BTW, I am not good at throwing and I'm finding handbuilding quite challenging, so extruding may help my pottery life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcia Selsor Posted December 31, 2016 Report Share Posted December 31, 2016 I have used tarpaper for hand building large slab pots. I think this could be applied to this type of twisted form by leaving the tar paper pattern on the outside of the shape and removing it after to stand up the walls. My forms use the tarpaper form on the inside, but it works both ways.This piece is some fired and about 24" tall. Marcia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1515art Posted December 31, 2016 Report Share Posted December 31, 2016 There is a technique taught by David Middlebrook that would also allow great flexibility in making large hand built forms. The technique uses vermiculite held in a cloth container as an interior support for the hand building form. One cloth container that works well is a nylon stocking filled with vermiculite the size of the form you want to make. Take a slab of clay and wrap the vermiculite form in the clay slab keeping track of the knot in the stocking that is keeping the vermiculite in. Paddle and shape the form to anything you like and when the clay firms but before enough shrinkage occurs to cause any stress cracks, undo the knot in the stocking (or cut a new hole) and pour out the vermiculite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnolia Mud Research Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 Yes. I make bottles and cups of similar shapes to the items in the photo by wrapping a slab around a cardboard or tar paper form. I use Red-Oval cracker boxes for tall square bottles. Other forms are made similarly. Roll out a thin slab, wrap the clay loosely around the form of a squared cylinder. If a twisted form is needed, I carefully twist the pot as I remove the supporting form. Timing is important. Removing the form too soon usually leads to collapse, and waiting too long leads to cracking. There is often a limit to how big a piece I can make without having help to handle the clay and the forms. I learned the hard way to bring the form to the slab of clay and roll the two so that the form or the work table is always supporting the clay. Thinking through the steps before handling the clay helps to get steps in the best order right the first time. Then adding the bottoms and tops follows as shown in the video. A key point is not to force the clay to be tight on the supporting form. The supporting form is there for first support and secondly to make the form. If you wrap to tight against the form, removal of the form usually leads to damage to the pot, after a stressful (on you and the pot) separation of the two. One way to learn to make pots this way is to practice constructing just one part over and over. Roll out the slab, wrap the clay around the support and make a seam. check that the shape and size is what you were aiming for, and then wedge the clay back into a lump and repeat the steps until you are confident that you do it. Then switch to the next part that you will need. After you have worked out the techniques and details of making each piece then work on assembling parts. Sometimes, the most difficult part to make is not the main body. This was true for me making cylinder bottles with conical tops. The cones were more difficult to make than were the bottles. I finally used funnels as supports, and templates to get the size and shapes of the cones correct. My final sequence was to first make the cones and then match the cylinders to fit the cones. LT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 Extruded forms are great but they will not make up for thrown work. I find they do not sell as well as thrown forms. You can make unusual forms especially with that Bailey expansion box in video .I do not think an extruded works as a substitute to thrown and handbill forms as the buying audience is smaller that of other mediums. The exception is folks who are known for only their extruded work. I think of an extruder as just another tool to add to my tool box. I suggest you stay at throwing until its mastered and the same with hand building . I have a friend who is a good thrower and a great hand builder and he always wanted an extruder and after years of indecision he sprung for a small one which he never uses now two years later. I use two of them myself mostly for handles and straps .Sure I have made cups and the odd forms but they are slow movers compared to thrown forms. All those teapots can be handbuilt just make up the cardboard templates and cut them from slabs from a clay body the can take the stress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bciskepottery Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 The extruder allows you to achieve an articulation or animation in the form that is hard to replicate with slabs. Not saying it can't be done, but the joined edges of the slabs will be a weak point as you twist the form to get articulation and movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputty Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mug Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 If your happy and successful at hand building you should set up your equipment to do just that. Wow Mark there are plenty of people through out time who have never set foot in front of a pottery wheel on a daily basis and make a living with casting clay, hand building or stamping clay with a press. While I see the point of throwing on a wheel by yourself as a money maker, casting clay, hand building, and stamping clay are all the methods you would use if you were to add a number of employees from a business point of view. One of the top sellers in pottery on Etsy uses a slab roller and stamps, someones imagination motivation and business skills may be the limitation. I seen the video and in the description it mentioned "Judy uses an hydraulic extruder as a basis for her non-functional teapot forms." A hydraulic extruder is not your everyday clay extruder and would certainly cost quite a bit. You would probably need a larger hydraulic extruder to make the big teapots she made and then you would need a method to fire a large piece. Scaling that idea down a little to use a smaller extruder. I have not personally used the TA Metalworks extruder listed on Ebay. It is reasonably priced and it looks like it's well designed and would probably work well. They may even be able to build a larger extruder for a reasonable cost. If you are hand building it may be perfect for you. One last thing, you may try using paper clay slabs for this type a form. Paper clay has many advantages for hand built work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyK Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 But i don't have an extruder. Am thinking of buying one, but don't know if I'd find enough to make to make it worth it. BTW, I am not good at throwing and I'm finding handbuilding quite challenging, so extruding may help my pottery life. You might check into a book on extruding to get an idea of what you can do with the tool. If it is inspiring enough, get an extruder that will enable you to do what you want and have at it. My feeling is that if there is something that will help you achieve what you strive for and you can afford it, go for it! JohnnyK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denice Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 I know a potter that makes similar work to those vases and she uses a hydraulic extruder, very pricey. Denice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 (Wow Mark there are plenty of people through out time who have never set foot in front of a pottery wheel on a daily basis and make a living with casting clay, hand building or stamping clay with a press.) Yes I get that but the statement (I am not good at throwing and I'm finding handbuilding quite challenging, so extruding may help my pottery life. ) ​My suggestions go more to thoroughly learning all the skills needed-buying a hydraulic extruder to make twisted extractions is fine but those other skills need to be mastered. In that video she also has a Ram press in background and most of that work in background is pressed out which is fine but its more inline with altered industrial production tecqnics. In this world having employees makes sense as the skill sets are more limited. (like my slip business) This person(the original poster) I think once was debating doing clay full time for an income. ​My power slab roller is very much a part of my success as would a power extruder but those tools are only additions to learning all basic skills well. None of them are stand alone tools to my business-yes I once had a slip business on the side and all you needed was molds and a mixer and pump and you could hire it all out but thats not what I think she is looking for. My market experience is about as far from etsey as one can get. In my sales to customers directly extruded forms just did not do as well as other means. I consider all these tools worth using and having the skill set to master each-but its better to focus on a few at a time I feel for education purposes . Lets see if some teachers think this is the case. I think of them as stepping stones or building blocks all these skills . Learning each well is best-if I side stepped any I would not be here today in clay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rakukuku Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 love the vermiculite idea. Gonna try it. I have done some similar things with sand in socks. Could probably use lots of things as long as it doesn't hurt if a bit gets in the clay. I also roll up newspaper and wad it into shape as a base for things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancylee Posted January 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 Extruded forms are great but they will not make up for thrown work. I find they do not sell as well as thrown forms. You can make unusual forms especially with that Bailey expansion box in video .I do not think an extruded works as a substitute to thrown and handbill forms as the buying audience is smaller that of other mediums. The exception is folks who are known for only their extruded work. I think of an extruder as just another tool to add to my tool box. I suggest you stay at throwing until its mastered and the same with hand building . I have a friend who is a good thrower and a great hand builder and he always wanted an extruder and after years of indecision he sprung for a small one which he never uses now two years later. I use two of them myself mostly for handles and straps .Sure I have made cups and the odd forms but they are slow movers compared to thrown forms. All those teapots can be handbuilt just make up the cardboard templates and cut them from slabs from a clay body the can take the stress. I've been practicing throwing for 6 years and anything over 4 pounds or so I can't center and wreck when I'm pulling up. It's more than a little frustrating at this point. Thanks for ,the suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancylee Posted January 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 The extruder allows you to achieve an articulation or animation in the form that is hard to replicate with slabs. Not saying it can't be done, but the joined edges of the slabs will be a weak point as you twist the form to get articulation and movement. Oh, that's cool! Thanks!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancylee Posted January 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 If your happy and successful at hand building you should set up your equipment to do just that. Wow Mark there are plenty of people through out time who have never set foot in front of a pottery wheel on a daily basis and make a living with casting clay, hand building or stamping clay with a press. While I see the point of throwing on a wheel by yourself as a money maker, casting clay, hand building, and stamping clay are all the methods you would use if you were to add a number of employees from a business point of view. One of the top sellers in pottery on Etsy uses a slab roller and stamps, someones imagination motivation and business skills may be the limitation. I seen the video and in the description it mentioned "Judy uses an hydraulic extruder as a basis for her non-functional teapot forms." A hydraulic extruder is not your everyday clay extruder and would certainly cost quite a bit. You would probably need a larger hydraulic extruder to make the big teapots she made and then you would need a method to fire a large piece. Scaling that idea down a little to use a smaller extruder. I have not personally used the TA Metalworks extruder listed on Ebay. It is reasonably priced and it looks like it's well designed and would probably work well. They may even be able to build a larger extruder for a reasonable cost. If you are hand building it may be perfect for you. One last thing, you may try using paper clay slabs for this type a form. Paper clay has many advantages for hand built work. Thanks for the ideas! And I'm in the etsy mud group with a top seller on etsy who makes small dishes with a slab roller. Probably the same person!! She is a machine herself!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancylee Posted January 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 But i don't have an extruder. Am thinking of buying one, but don't know if I'd find enough to make to make it worth it. BTW, I am not good at throwing and I'm finding handbuilding quite challenging, so extruding may help my pottery life. You might check into a book on extruding to get an idea of what you can do with the tool. If it is inspiring enough, get an extruder that will enable you to do what you want and have at it. My feeling is that if there is something that will help you achieve what you strive for and you can afford it, go for it!JohnnyKthanks Johnny K! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancylee Posted January 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 (Wow Mark there are plenty of people through out time who have never set foot in front of a pottery wheel on a daily basis and make a living with casting clay, hand building or stamping clay with a press.) Yes I get that but the statement (I am not good at throwing and I'm finding handbuilding quite challenging, so extruding may help my pottery life. ) ​My suggestions go more to thoroughly learning all the skills needed-buying a hydraulic extruder to make twisted extractions is fine but those other skills need to be mastered. In that video she also has a Ram press in background and most of that work in background is pressed out which is fine but its more inline with altered industrial production tecqnics. In this world having employees makes sense as the skill sets are more limited. (like my slip business) This person(the original poster) I think once was debating doing clay full time for an income. ​My power slab roller is very much a part of my success as would a power extruder but those tools are only additions to learning all basic skills well. None of them are stand alone tools to my business-yes I once had a slip business on the side and all you needed was molds and a mixer and pump and you could hire it all out but thats not what I think she is looking for. My market experience is about as far from etsey as one can get. In my sales to customers directly extruded forms just did not do as well as other means. I consider all these tools worth using and having the skill set to master each-but its better to focus on a few at a time I feel for education purposes . Lets see if some teachers think this is the case. I think of them as stepping stones or building blocks all these skills . Learning each well is best-if I side stepped any I would not be here today in clay. I agree, and I'm a teacher for 25 years. But at what point do I tell a student who just really sucks at poetry to maybe try writing prose? I have literally been trying to be able to throw a little bigger for 5 of my 6 years making pottery! And since I tried that for so long and failed over and over, i am just starting handbuilding, which has its own learning curve! And i wasnt clear that I don't care if the forms are twisted, i was just wondering about making even straight sided, smaller teapot forms with an extruder. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnolia Mud Research Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 Nancy, Take a look at David Hendley's work and studio at:http://farmpots.com/ His extruder is not as big as the one in the video this thread started with, but he has made stuff almost that big. A lot of his extruded pots have a twist or curve added as part of the extrusion. His extruder is homemade, and free standing. photos are in his 'studio tour' link on the website. He does a lot of work with an extruder, making functional pots. He produced a DVD series some years back on extruders and their use. I think he still sells them from his website. LT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcia Selsor Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 David was a demonstrator at a Potters Council conference called Extravaganza in Tarrant Tx about 10 years ago.His twisted boxes are really happy whimsical forms. Do look him up. He also has a dvd of music called the Cobalt Blues. Marcia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 I did a workshop with David about 11 years ago thru the potters council in Mendocino. He does do a lot of extruded forms. adds feet to them and twisted them. My friend pumps out teapots and vases using slabs (all cut with cardboard templates) very whimsical . He is my salt kiln partner and very good old friend from way back and he is extremely talented in clay and wood.More talent than my mere words can express . You can see some of his work below After looking at his work send him some kind thoughts as he is need of them now. You do not need an extruder to get that look.It may be easier for twisted forms for sure. Nancy I suggest more classwork with other potters to help you improve the throwing skills. It took me about 8 years to fully master throwing looking back-started in high school(Bought a wheel at 18) and about 4 years after collage I had it down. I thought I knew how all during collage but looking back that was not reality.Basically threw as much as I could for years and tears and years. Its not for every student as you said(I could not draw figures in art school) but I tried like mad because you needed that class to get the art degree. It was improvement that I was graded on-I still cannot draw figures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancylee Posted January 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 I did a workshop with David about 11 years ago thru the potters council in Mendocino. He does do a lot of extruded forms. adds feet to them and twisted them. My friend pumps out teapots and vases using slabs (all cut with cardboard templates) very whimsical . He is my salt kiln partner and very good old friend from way back and he is extremely talented in clay and wood.More talent than my mere words can express . You can see some of his work below After looking at his work send him some kind thoughts as he is need of them now. You do not need an extruder to get that look.It may be easier for twisted forms for sure. Nancy I suggest more classwork with other potters to help you improve the throwing skills. It took me about 8 years to fully master throwing looking back-started in high school(Bought a wheel at 18) and about 4 years after collage I had it down. I thought I knew how all during collage but looking back that was not reality.Basically threw as much as I could for years and tears and years. Its not for every student as you said(I could not draw figures in art school) but I tried like mad because you needed that class to get the art degree. It was improvement that I was graded on-I still cannot draw figures. Thanks, Mark. I do get distracted by the shiny new thing. Perhaps if imsat down every day for an hiur and threw, I would be able to do it. I find that once I start pulling, especially, time speeds up and I lose control of the clay. Ugh. It happens over and over. What is your friend's name? His work is awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancylee Posted January 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 BTW, what clay body can take the stress of handbuilding taller teapots? I have local access to Laguna clay. Thanks! Nancy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancylee Posted January 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 Nancy, Take a look at David Hendley's work and studio at: http://farmpots.com/ His extruder is not as big as the one in the video this thread started with, but he has made stuff almost that big. A lot of his extruded pots have a twist or curve added as part of the extrusion. His extruder is homemade, and free standing. photos are in his 'studio tour' link on the website. He does a lot of work with an extruder, making functional pots. He produced a DVD series some years back on extruders and their use. I think he still sells them from his website. LT Wow!!!! Love his work and his colors!!!!! I die!! Does he fire at cone 10? Looks like it. If i could make pottery like that, with thise colors, I would be happy to do nothing else! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bciskepottery Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 Nancy, Take a look at David Hendley's work and studio at: http://farmpots.com/ His extruder is not as big as the one in the video this thread started with, but he has made stuff almost that big. A lot of his extruded pots have a twist or curve added as part of the extrusion. His extruder is homemade, and free standing. photos are in his 'studio tour' link on the website. He does a lot of work with an extruder, making functional pots. He produced a DVD series some years back on extruders and their use. I think he still sells them from his website. LT Wow!!!! Love his work and his colors!!!!! I die!! Does he fire at cone 10? Looks like it. If i could make pottery like that, with thise colors, I would be happy to do nothing else! David fires to cone 10 in his wood kiln. His clay and slips are made from local clays that he digs and preps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 Nancy his pots are fired to cone 9-electric oxidation I used to fire them for him to cone 10 reduction . Laguna clay called 1/2 1/2 can take the abuse-they make two kinds I would get the less fine groged one(the one with larger grog). We use the fine porcelain gorged one but it can crack in large slab works.I use it for all my slab work. My friend is very ill right now and I'm going to ask for you just to send him good thoughts-I'm keeping his name private for awhile as he need some space now he is a hobby potter who has lots of talent.Just enjoy the work its made from slabs (not thrown)and handbuilt. All those glazes are in Tom Colmans glazes I use book one or two-most are not food safe on the outside the green one is Ritz green. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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