clay lover Posted March 19, 2018 Report Share Posted March 19, 2018 Are Mayco Stroke and Coat and Duncan Concepts engobes? The bottles say they can fire from ^04 to ^10 , are true to color and will fire out shiny, like a glaze, but don't run either under or over glazes. also, if I have a recipe that has EPK, mason stains and a frit, is that an engobe and will it behave like these commercial products? I am confused. Thanks for any and all advice /comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldlady Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 try our newly attached glossary for a definition of engobe. and the other things you are not sure of. stroke and coat says it is a glaze. the bottles usually have a name on them. maybe someone sells engobes but i have never heard of them being sold commercially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcia Selsor Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 A recipe using EPK , a frit and and a mason stain could be a to of things depending on the quantity. If it is 1/3 of each, it is a cone 04 Val Cushing underglaze recipe. Marcia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yappystudent Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 Here's a link to the glossary: https://ceramicartsnetwork.org/glossary/ Also I have an assortment of Duncan concepts and I've used the Mayco stroke n' coats, I can say the Duncans are extremely reliable and have a satin finish at ^06 and a shiny finish at ^6, that's about all I've fired them to. True colors especially over white clays but pretty predictable and bright over red/dark clays also. Their main drawback I assume is price for those little bottles, fine for jewelry or painting designs but you can't dip pots in them. I tried the mayco for some purely art pieces over raw clay, it did acceptably well but only fired to a velvet finish at ^06. Overall Duncan is more consistent for most uses IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputty Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curt Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 Sounds like someone is volunteering to write the new and improved CAD glossary! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputty Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callie Beller Diesel Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 7 hours ago, Sputty said: Not such a bad idea! I'm all for collaborative working - it certainly shouldn't be beyond the wit of a collective drawn from forum members to develop an inclusive, detailed, referenced glossary over time. A continual work in progress, with entries commonly agreed. I'm away for a week from today, possibly without interweb connectivity - but I expect to see the job finished when I return... I'll get right on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeU Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 @Oldlady ... I use a commercial engobe that is just wonderful. Cone 5 Engobe (thinly applied-I did not want a deep/thick black) Leguna MS-203 Ghana Black (Moroccan Sand Series) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldlady Posted March 21, 2018 Report Share Posted March 21, 2018 lee, the laguna ad for moroccan sand calls it a glaze. sputty, i agree that the term engobe is not well defined. i remember being laughed at when someone asked what it was and i said it was a slip that enrobed a pot to change its color. even though i cannot really define a "glaze" i know that slip is clay and even with 20 coats on a piece of clay, the whole thing is still only clay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yappystudent Posted March 21, 2018 Report Share Posted March 21, 2018 Also have tried to pin down a few people in authority (college ceramics teachers, supply store staff) on what exactly an engobe is and ended up in those verbal exchanges where I make guesses and they act evasive. TY Sputty for the useful definition. I've had the same experience with the word "Guache" e.g. opaque watercolor essentially, I think. It's funny because engobe sounds a lot like it serves the same deceptively simple purpose of taking the place of a decorative application of color normally considered transparent, just in a totally different medium. Convergent confusion . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Campbell Posted March 21, 2018 Report Share Posted March 21, 2018 Amaco sells colored engobes. Five or six different colors. In my little world, engobe is just another name for a slip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rae Reich Posted March 21, 2018 Report Share Posted March 21, 2018 The confusion, in my early classes, was between engobes and underglazes, since both are used to coat the clay surface, but are not glazes. er, what Is the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Min Posted March 22, 2018 Report Share Posted March 22, 2018 Both a slip and an engobe can change the surface texture and colour of the clay to which it’s applied to. An engobe is similar to a slip but is made with less clay content than a slip. Typically slips are formulated to be similar to a claybody in chemistry (or the clay body itself is used to make a slip). Since there is less clay in an engobe it is going to shrink less than a slip therefore can be used on leather-hard, dry greenware or bisque without shrinkage problems. Slips work best when applied as soon as possible to the still wet or damp clay pot so the slip and the pot shrink together. Engobes have higher flux content than slips to help create a bond between the clay surface and the engobe whereas a slip bonds to the surface through the interface between the damp clay and the slip. Slips don't rely on additional fluxes to bond with the pot. Since there is more flux in an engobe than a slip the fired surface can be more vitreous than a slip . I think part of the confusion comes from the term "vitreous slip" which by definition it is an engobe and not a slip. Underglazes can have a clay base or a frit base but with either they still have the properties of an engobe more than a slip. Others may have different definitions, this is my understanding of the terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Miller Posted March 22, 2018 Report Share Posted March 22, 2018 Engobe is a French word for slip. Simple as that. Min’s answer is the most thorough as to the everday use of the word, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldlady Posted March 22, 2018 Report Share Posted March 22, 2018 and, so, because the definition in the posted glossary is inadequate, i suggest that min's explanation be added to the glossary for clarity. anyone agree? there are other definitions in the glossary that could be amended, hope we can do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rae Reich Posted March 23, 2018 Report Share Posted March 23, 2018 18 hours ago, Min said: Both a slip and an engobe can change the surface texture and colour of the clay to which it’s applied to. An engobe is similar to a slip but is made with less clay content than a slip. Typically slips are formulated to be similar to a claybody in chemistry (or the clay body itself is used to make a slip). Since there is less clay in an engobe it is going to shrink less than a slip therefore can be used on leather-hard, dry greenware or bisque without shrinkage problems. Slips work best when applied as soon as possible to the still wet or damp clay pot so the slip and the pot shrink together. Engobes have higher flux content than slips to help create a bond between the clay surface and the engobe whereas a slip bonds to the surface through the interface between the damp clay and the slip. Slips don't rely on additional fluxes to bond with the pot. Since there is more flux in an engobe than a slip the fired surface can be more vitreous than a slip . I think part of the confusion comes from the term "vitreous slip" which by definition it is an engobe and not a slip. Underglazes can have a clay base or a frit base but with either they still have the properties of an engobe more than a slip. Others may have different definitions, this is my understanding of the terms. Thanks for the refresher, Min. Well said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clay lover Posted March 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2018 Min, great info, I had not understood the more clay, less shrink age directive. certainly applies to how to use each. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputty Posted March 28, 2018 Report Share Posted March 28, 2018 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Miller Posted April 2, 2018 Report Share Posted April 2, 2018 @sputty you missed my use of an indefinite article. A word for slip, not the word. And actually, doing a little more digging, Min’s definition and the “American” definition seems to be common usage. Even in French. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputty Posted April 2, 2018 Report Share Posted April 2, 2018 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Miller Posted April 2, 2018 Report Share Posted April 2, 2018 https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engobe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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