algebraist Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Hi All, I am looking to buy a new, good quality, electric kiln in the 7 to 10 cubic feet range for cone 6 firings. By reputation I am tending towards Skutt and L&L, but the more I learn about them (from their own documentation and posts here), the less I feel like I know... A couple of thoughts and questions: 1) Skutt argues that their "balanced" elements (with more power at the top and bottom of the kiln) give even firings, making multiple zone control unnecessary, and they go on to say that you're better off not having to maintain and stack around multiple thermocouples. This sounds like rationalizing a cost-saving decision to me. Are they right -- can you really trust that the kiln fires evenly without having thermocouples in each zone? (Skutt mentions zone control as an option on "some kilns", but I don't see it listed as an option on the "KM" kilns in this size range.) 2) L&L recommends that if you're going to fire regularly to cone 6 you should get one of their quad element kilns. These require heavier gauge wiring ("4" as opposed to "6"), draw more power, and need a bigger circuit breaker. I'm still waiting fearfully for my electrician's quote, but that isn't going to help. I suspect that people fire their "Easy Fire" kilns (without the quad elements) in this size range to cone 6 all the time; any thoughts on how important the quad element option is? (In contrast, the Skutt kilns in this range come with "twice the element grooves" -- which I think is the equivalent of L&L's "quad" option.) I know people like L&L's ceramic element holders, so that's a plus. And L&L has a 3 year warranty whereas the Skutt has a 2 year warranty. Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions. - Hy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph Fireborn Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 I have an easy fire L&L and it fires beautifully to cone 6 with absolutely zero problems, I have a much smaller kiln than your looking at though. I went with an L&L because I am going to have a kiln for a long long time, and I looked at old pictures of skutt kilns on craigslist and the bricks were beat to crap from element changes, and when I found a few old L&L kilns the bricks looked like brand new because of the element holders. The price is pretty big between the two, but I don't think you can go wrong with either one. One thing I will say is I have adjusted my TC's for the zone differences, so I did in fact like the ability to do that. I lowered temp of bottom TC and increased heat of top TC, evening the heat in the bottom top and middle. Kiln fires the same exact cone on all three sections. Took only a few test to get it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldlady Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 having had a paragon (1972) 18 inches deep, 18 inches wide, (i am too old for this cubic foot nonsense) and a big L&L since 2003 or so, i have to say get an L&L. the element grooves are a real plus. i am getting older, aren't we all, and find that occasionally i knock a shelf on the wall on the way out of the kiln. my old kilns, the original paragon and the paragon given to me by a potter with a new one, have nicks and missing pieces where the elements fall out of their grooves. Skutt is built without the hard groove protection of the L&L. the hard groove bricks are so good that jim bailey has put them into his new kilns. must be good. i also appreciate the strength of the lid on my L&L. i am sure there have been improvements since mine, but it is great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bciskepottery Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 My kiln is an L&L with three zone control, fire regularly to cone 6. I learned to fire in a community studio that had L&L for studio kilns, with resident artists having Skutt. I do not regret the decision to get the L&L. Yes, it cost more . . . but I'll have this kiln for 30 years; a few hundred dollars spread over 30 years is not much. What also influenced me was the market for used kilns . . . I often see Skutt, Olympic, and other brands for sale on Craigslist, auction sites, notecards at clay shops, etc.; very seldom do I see an L&L on the market. That told me a lot about quality and user satisfaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcia Selsor Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 good advice. I have 2 Axner super kilns 10 years old. No problems except one fuse. That was from firing while extremely hot outside. I blow a fan on it now if I must fire when it is extremely hot..100+ Marcia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algebraist Posted July 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Thanks for all the replies so far. Bciskepottery: does your L&L have their "quad" element option? - Hy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Graded elements will never fire as evenly as zone control. Just search the forum and you'll find out just how often people have evenness problems with single zone kilns. Quad elements are nice, but not really necessary. They will last longer than the regular elements, and will probably pay for themselves over the life of the kiln, but the E23T-2 (7 cu/ft) will reach cone 6 just fine without them. If you go with a 10 cu/ft kiln and are running wiring anyway, I would go with a more powerful kiln than the E28T-3, and put in the 80 amp breaker. It's always nice to have more power. But if you're stuck with a 60 amp breaker, the E28T-3 will fire to cone 6 just fine as long as you're not packing it really full with tons of small things, like an entire load of cups or tiles. Feel free to give me a call or email me if you have more questions about L&L or need pricing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bciskepottery Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Thanks for all the replies so far. Bciskepottery: does your L&L have their "quad" element option? - Hy No. It is an E23T-3 (3 inch brick for insulation). I just replaced my elements after 100 firings; the glaze fires were getting a bit longer each time and the elements were showing signs of wear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph Fireborn Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Thanks for all the replies so far. Bciskepottery: does your L&L have their "quad" element option? - Hy No. It is an E23T-3 (3 inch brick for insulation). I just replaced my elements after 100 firings; the glaze fires were getting a bit longer each time and the elements were showing signs of wear. Just curious was that 100 glaze firings or a 100 firings in general? Cause I am approaching that number shortly. Another few months. Not to get off topic or anything, this is information the OP could want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benzine Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 I've used both Skutt and L&L, in my classroom. I used the Skutt first, and generally had no issues. My second year using it, we had to replace the elements, as it was barely getting to our bisque temp. Right before I left that district, the elements were again worn out, and that was only four years later. We only did low fire, so Cone 04 max. At my current district, I have a L&L. I have been here four years, and I know the elements weren't replaced the couple years before I got here. So the elements are going strong at least six to seven years. They look like they are wearing a bit, but the firings are taking the same time, so they don't need to be replaced quite yet. As Grype stated, the L&L also have the element holders, which make removal of the old and installation of the new, much easier. I have an older Skutt at home, but that's because it was given to me. If I had the money, and was going to buy new, or slightly used, I'd go with L&L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judy_in_GA Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 OK gotta ask ... Have seen this several times lately... "The OP"? Old people...other potters... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph Fireborn Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 OK gotta ask ... Have seen this several times lately... "The OP"? Old people...other potters... Original Poster - or the person who posted the thread, created it, started it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benzine Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 OK gotta ask ... Have seen this several times lately... "The OP"? Old people...other potters... Original Poster - or the person who posted the thread, created it, started it. Or a variation of "OG (Original Gangster). In this case Original Potter. OPs are waaaaaay more laid back than OGs.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judy_in_GA Posted July 24, 2015 Report Share Posted July 24, 2015 Thx Grype! Benzine ...I guess teaching lets you stay current on slang. My era was cool man, as opposed to the progression through dude, dog, bro and whatever is latest this week! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algebraist Posted July 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2015 The OP here... Thanks again everyone. Okay, L&L it is. If anyone else cares to weigh in on the issue of quad elements, I'd be happy to hear. I did talk to the electrician today, and the news wasn't good (have to upgrade to 200 amp service, not cheap), so if most people get their L&L 7 - 10 cubic foot kilns firing to cone 6 without the quad element option, I'd be inclined to save a little. On the other hand, I'll be shelling out a lot of money anyway, and I don't want to wish I'd done it differently in a few years. - Hy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benzine Posted July 24, 2015 Report Share Posted July 24, 2015 Thx Grype! Benzine ...I guess teaching lets you stay current on slang. My era was cool man, as opposed to the progression through dude, dog, bro and whatever is latest this week! Ha, sometimes, not always. There are many times, where I don't even have any idea, what the hell they are talking about. That may be fore the better, in some cases... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bciskepottery Posted July 24, 2015 Report Share Posted July 24, 2015 Just curious was that 100 glaze firings or a 100 firings in general? Cause I am approaching that number shortly. Another few months. Not to get off topic or anything, this is information the OP could want. 100 total firings. Bisque 05; glaze 6. Was skewed a bit toward glaze firings; when I bought the kiln I was bisque firing at the community studio where I taught. I now do both at home. The elements were working, but I'd rather replace before one goes out. Sorta big on preventive maintenance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldlady Posted July 24, 2015 Report Share Posted July 24, 2015 if you are still shopping, OP, check out bailey pottery supply. he does engineer the best of several ideas into products with his name on them. we do not know where you are in what country, so telling you to buy locally is a waste. if you are upgrading to 200 amps, check into going even more just because the world is always adding things that get plugged into sockets somewhere in the house and you might be very close to using a full 200 amp box already. since you are doing the electrical work, maybe there is a better location for the breaker box. time to plan for it all, not just the kiln. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted July 24, 2015 Report Share Posted July 24, 2015 I put new elements in my L&L DaVinci 18 months and 130 firings ago. My elements are starting to show some signs of wear- I'll probably have to replace them in a few months. I'd say at least 65% of those firings were cone 6. I generally go about 2 years between element changes in that kiln. I change elements in my smaller L&L every 12-18 months, but I fire it a lot more. I just hit 1,000 firings on that kiln, over 7 years. That's a firing every 2.5 days. It still has all the original bricks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph Fireborn Posted July 24, 2015 Report Share Posted July 24, 2015 TY all for info. I am on firing 75ish, half and half, so I am guessing my element replacements coming up in the new year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Bridge Pottery Posted July 24, 2015 Report Share Posted July 24, 2015 The OP here... Thanks again everyone. Okay, L&L it is. If anyone else cares to weigh in on the issue of quad elements, I'd be happy to hear. I did talk to the electrician today, and the news wasn't good (have to upgrade to 200 amp service, not cheap), so if most people get their L&L 7 - 10 cubic foot kilns firing to cone 6 without the quad element option, I'd be inclined to save a little. On the other hand, I'll be shelling out a lot of money anyway, and I don't want to wish I'd done it differently in a few years. - Hy Got a link to these quad elements? What is a quad element? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bciskepottery Posted July 25, 2015 Report Share Posted July 25, 2015 Got a link to these quad elements? What is a quad element? http://www.hotkilns.com/quad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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