Any idea what those rubber rings that keep the element connectors from touching the kiln jacket are called?

[Msheffield]

Hi you all, I am needing to replace the black rubber rings that go around the porcelain insulators, but I am not sure what they're called and can't seem to find them on the Paragon website (my kiln is a discontinued A82B) or on the internet in general. Any idea what they might be called, or where to find them?  

Also, is it normal for the brass connectors to show signs of corrosion within 6-8 months after installation?

[Russ]

Grommet?

[Msheffield]

49 minutes ago, Russ said:

Grommet?

Thanks for the input. I looked up grommets, and I don't think that's what it is.... This one is flat. 

[Bill Kielb]

1 hour ago, Msheffield said:

Hi you all, I am needing to replace the black rubber rings that go around the porcelain insulators, but I am not sure what they're called and can't seem to find them on the Paragon website (my kiln is a discontinued A82B) or on the internet in general. Any idea what they might be called, or where to find them?  

Also, is it normal for the brass connectors to show signs of corrosion within 6-8 months after installation?

I would replace with high temp silicone grommet (rated 500f) from McMaster or other source. Those look like a typical  push in tubing grommet or conventional grommet. If they are rubber the area they are in must be cooled  reasonably well by convection as rubber would only be rated to about 200 f providing that is rubber, I would change out to high temp regular grommet in silicone as superior.

Brass corrosion
Heat makes things oxidize more quickly so if you believe this is excessive, better cooling in this area would extend the life. If you have the clearance leaving the element tales longer often helps and gets it into a cooler stream of air. Cutting them tight is neat and potentially electrically safer, but nearest the kiln is warmest and will raise their temperature. A loose connection would also raise the temperature.

[neilestrick]

I would just use THESE insulators if the hole in your metal isn't too big that they'll push through.

[cadenrank]

I was going to say the same thing as Neil. One of my older kilns was using not very effective insulators, and a mica washer (I believe), and I just didn't feel comfortable without the mica washers (which fell apart, and I didn't know what they were called until after the project was complete) so I made some slight modifications and replaced it with the T style insulators that Skutt commonly uses, and that Neil showed above and am much more comfortable with their protection than the prior set up. 

Alternatively, you could also find the mica washers that would fit on there, or some kind of ceramic washer. But the T insulators are cheap, as long as they fit and perform their function well for your kiln.

[Mark C.]

2 hours ago, neilestrick said:

I would just use THESE insulators if the hole in your metal isn't too big that they'll push through.

This link does not take to much??

[Msheffield]

3 hours ago, Bill Kielb said:

I would replace with high temp silicone grommet (rated 500f) from McMaster or other source. Those look like a typical  push in tubing grommet or conventional grommet. If they are rubber the area they are in must be cooled  reasonably well by convection as rubber would only be rated to about 200 f providing that is rubber, I would change out to high temp regular grommet in silicone as superior.

Brass corrosion
Heat makes things oxidize more quickly so if you believe this is excessive, better cooling in this area would extend the life. If you have the clearance leaving the element tales longer often helps and gets it into a cooler stream of air. Cutting them tight is neat and potentially electrically safer, but nearest the kiln is warmest and will raise their temperature. A loose connection would also raise the temperature.

Thanks for the idea! These are flat, though, just like a washer. The push-in part is the porcelain insulator. Will the kiln jacket not go above 500 F though? The issue with a grommet, depending on thickness, is that it will potentially push the connector so far out that the pigtail does not come all the way through the connector. 

I'll keep that in mind for the next time I replace the elements! They didn't seem particularly loose, but maybe what I think is tight is actually loose?

[Msheffield]

3 hours ago, neilestrick said:

I would just use THESE insulators if the hole in your metal isn't too big that they'll push through.

Thanks for the link. I checked, and those insulators are too long and would prevent the pigtail from coming all the way through the connector. How hard is it to cut porcelain? Do you think I could make my own connectors from Cone 10 porcelain, if I only fire to Cone 6? 

[Msheffield]

2 hours ago, cadenrank said:

I was going to say the same thing as Neil. One of my older kilns was using not very effective insulators, and a mica washer (I believe), and I just didn't feel comfortable without the mica washers (which fell apart, and I didn't know what they were called until after the project was complete) so I made some slight modifications and replaced it with the T style insulators that Skutt commonly uses, and that Neil showed above and am much more comfortable with their protection than the prior set up. 

Alternatively, you could also find the mica washers that would fit on there, or some kind of ceramic washer. But the T insulators are cheap, as long as they fit and perform their function well for your kiln.

Interesting about the mica washers... might have to get some of those since the t-style ones are too long. 

[Bill Kielb]

24 minutes ago, Msheffield said:

Thanks for the link. I checked, and those insulators are too long and would prevent the pigtail from coming all the way through the connector. How hard is it to cut porcelain? Do you think I could make my own connectors from Cone 10 porcelain, if I only fire to Cone 6? 

It’s hard to cut but with a diamond wheel can be done fairly easily. I actually like Neil’s idea better than the rubber grommets. It’s hard to believe the existing grommets are rubber though, truth be told. Even if the ceramic inserts above were slightly small in diameter for the hole they could be cemented in place with high temperature RTV, usually good to 650 degrees f. (Its maybe $10.00 per tube)  It looks like the ceramic  have a  little more than 1/4” shoulder so I think you could make it work.  

Certainly with new elements. If your elements are fairly new  you can extract some more distance from the pigtail, but it does take patience and a torch and of course having done it before is really a plus.

No I would not trust the home made variety btw

[neilestrick]

11 hours ago, Msheffield said:

I checked, and those insulators are too long and would prevent the pigtail from coming all the way through the connector.

Sorry, I assumed you were replacing the elements.

[Msheffield]

14 hours ago, Bill Kielb said:

It’s hard to cut but with a diamond wheel can be done fairly easily. I actually like Neil’s idea better than the rubber grommets. It’s hard to believe the existing grommets are rubber though, truth be told. Even if the ceramic inserts above were slightly small in diameter for the hole they could be cemented in place with high temperature RTV, usually good to 650 degrees f. (Its maybe $10.00 per tube)  It looks like the ceramic  have a  little more than 1/4” shoulder so I think you could make it work.  

Certainly with new elements. If your elements are fairly new  you can extract some more distance from the pigtail, but it does take patience and a torch and of course having done it before is really a plus.

No I would not trust the home made variety btw

I may try it; we'll see. After searching for a while on google for high temp silicone washers, I saw some high temp nylon ones which look exactly like mine, but there is no temperature rating, and I'm not sure exactly how hot the kiln jacket gets. I might call around to some electrical places to see if I can find the right size silicone washer before attempting to cut porcelain insulators. 

They're about 7 months old, so not sure if that counts as new? When I installed them, I pulled them quite snugly against the kiln brick, so there isn't a lot of give. 

Good to know. 

[Msheffield]

3 hours ago, neilestrick said:

Sorry, I assumed you were replacing the elements.

No problem. I replaced them about 7 months ago, so just trying to deal with the broken washers. 

[Msheffield]

17 hours ago, Bill Kielb said:

It’s hard to cut but with a diamond wheel can be done fairly easily. I actually like Neil’s idea better than the rubber grommets. It’s hard to believe the existing grommets are rubber though, truth be told. Even if the ceramic inserts above were slightly small in diameter for the hole they could be cemented in place with high temperature RTV, usually good to 650 degrees f. (Its maybe $10.00 per tube)  It looks like the ceramic  have a  little more than 1/4” shoulder so I think you could make it work.  

Certainly with new elements. If your elements are fairly new  you can extract some more distance from the pigtail, but it does take patience and a torch and of course having done it before is really a plus.

No I would not trust the home made variety btw

Bill, if I were to go the washer route, do you think these would work? They're rated to 500F https://www.mcmaster.com/high-temperature-washers/

[Msheffield]

I just called Paragon and discovered that they're fiber washers, but they no longer make them. Good to know. 

[Bill Kielb]

18 minutes ago, Msheffield said:

Bill, if I were to go the washer route, do you think these would work? They're rated to 500F https://www.mcmaster.com/high-temperature-washers/

Very likely should work. I would really like to see how they cool the washers that are there. Is that section stood off from the kiln body? Rubber washers, or most compositions are going to be rated much less than the carbon filled Peek. If you scroll down that page You can go with the ceramic and that should be a very permanent fix..  Pictures of the backside and dimensions would likely reveal a number of opportunities.

[Msheffield]

32 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said:

Very likely should work. I would really like to see how they cool the washers that are there. Is that section stood off from the kiln body? Rubber washers, or most compositions are going to be rated much less than the carbon filled Peek. If you scroll down that page You can go with the ceramic and that should be a very permanent fix..  Pictures of the backside and dimensions would likely reveal a number of opportunities.

What do you mean when you say "how they cool the washers"? I've thought about the ceramic ones, they're just expensive, and I need 8. I'll take a photo of the housing. Backside and dimensions of the washer? 

[Msheffield]

[Msheffield]

There is 1/2” clearance between the washer and the kiln body 

[neilestrick]

Is the issue with the Skutt-type ceramic T insulator that it's too long, or that the T part is too thick? Length is not an issue because you can twist it into the brick a bit if needed. In fact, it should go into the brick at least a little bit to guarantee that the element doesn't contact the metal jacket. In looking at these photos it seems like they would work fine.

[Msheffield]

12 minutes ago, neilestrick said:

Is the issue with the Skutt-type ceramic T insulator that it's too long, or that the T part is too thick? Length is not an issue because you can twist it into the brick a bit if needed. In fact, it should go into the brick at least a little bit to guarantee that the element doesn't contact the metal jacket. In looking at these photos it seems like they would work fine.

It's that the thinner stem is too long. Do you think I could push it 1/4 - 3/8" into the brick without damaging the pigtail?  

[cadenrank]

42 minutes ago, neilestrick said:

Length is not an issue because you can twist it into the brick a bit if needed. In fact, it should go into the brick at least a little bit to guarantee that the element doesn't contact the metal jacket. In looking at these photos it seems like they would work fine.

I did this in my overhaul. I was going to cut them, and even bought diamond blades for my angle grinder, and cut one, and it worked, but I just didn't want to have to do that to 12 of them. I read somewhere on here on a past thread about twisting into the brick a bit, and it works great and I feel 100x more comfortable with the setup (electrically) than I would if I had cut them off.. Not to mention if I have to replace them or I break one or something, the hole is already there, and it'd take a minute and 99c to replace. 

You also still can get the mica washers, but I'd personally prefer the T insulators. https://www.mcmaster.com/washers/material~mica/

[Msheffield]

14 minutes ago, cadenrank said:

I did this in my overhaul. I was going to cut them, and even bought diamond blades for my angle grinder, and cut one, and it worked, but I just didn't want to have to do that to 12 of them. I read somewhere on here on a past thread about twisting into the brick a bit, and it works great and I feel 100x more comfortable with the setup (electrically) than I would if I had cut them off.. Not to mention if I have to replace them or I break one or something, the hole is already there, and it'd take a minute and 99c to replace. 

You also still can get the mica washers, but I'd personally prefer the T insulators. https://www.mcmaster.com/washers/material~mica/

Awesome! Glad that worked for you. I will go with the porcelain insulators, then, since all the washers I've found cost between $20-57 to ship here. 

Thanks all of you for your input - so appreciate it! 

[neilestrick]

54 minutes ago, Msheffield said:

It's that the thinner stem is too long. Do you think I could push it 1/4 - 3/8" into the brick without damaging the pigtail?  

Yes. If nothing else you can dig out a little bit of brick around the pigtail with something pointy to make it easier to twist in.