Bill Kielb Posted October 27, 2021 Report Share Posted October 27, 2021 10 minutes ago, Msheffield said: Awesome! Glad that worked for you. I will go with the porcelain insulators, then, since all the washers I've found cost between $20-57 to ship here. Good choice! That insulator stays relatively cool because of the thin gauge metal channel and airflow. It’s only there to prevent the barrel connector from touching and shorting to the metal shell. Teflon or silicone washers would be fine actually and the fiber probably begins to degrade around 300 degrees. Ceramic washers work for sure forever but pushing the ready mades into the brick way better and cheaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Msheffield Posted October 28, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2021 3 minutes ago, neilestrick said: Yes. If nothing else you can dig out a little bit of brick around the pigtail with something pointy to make it easier to twist in. Ok cool, I will try that. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Msheffield Posted October 28, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2021 11 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said: Good choice! That insulator stays relatively cool because of the thin gauge metal channel and airflow. It’s only there to prevent the barrel connector from touching and shorting to the metal shell. Teflon or silicone washers would be fine actually and the fiber probably begins to degrade around 300 degrees. Ceramic washers work for sure forever but pushing the ready mades into the brick way better and cheaper. Makes sense, and I was also worried about dropping and breaking the ceramic washers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted October 28, 2021 Report Share Posted October 28, 2021 All that (washer ) does is keep the electrical connector off the jacket so it cannot touch it and sparks will fly The mica washers will work or any electrical insulator material that can stand some mild heat will work your pigtail connector in your close up photo looks a bit like its on its last legs and need to be replaced many options at Mcmaster Carr really-you could cut yor own with a punch as well-forget about rubber here are some choices https://www.mcmaster.com/insulating-flat-washers/ceramic-and-mica-washers/ also as a potter you could just make your own from porcelain clay and fire them and install them-bingo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Msheffield Posted October 28, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2021 1 hour ago, Mark C. said: All that (washer ) does is keep the electrical connector off the jacket so it cannot touch it and sparks will fly The mica washers will work or any electrical insulator material that can stand some mild heat will work your pigtail connector in your close up photo looks a bit like its on its last legs and need to be replaced many options at Mcmaster Carr really-you could cut yor own with a punch as well-forget about rubber here are some choices https://www.mcmaster.com/insulating-flat-washers/ceramic-and-mica-washers/ also as a potter you could just make your own from porcelain clay and fire them and install them-bingo Thanks for the input, Mark. I was about to order some sort of washer from Mcmaster, but the shipping is 50 bucks. The connectors are fairly new - I installed them in March. I am figuring they are either loose (or looser than they ought to be), or that the condensation on the tin roof above them has fallen down enough to cause issues (the grating at the top of the electrical box casing has rusted, and the bottom connectors look fine, so it might be a moisture issue). We've had ridiculous amounts of prolongued rain this year. I thought about making my own, but I have no way to fire them at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted October 28, 2021 Report Share Posted October 28, 2021 3 hours ago, Msheffield said: or that the condensation on the tin roof above them has fallen down enough to cause issues (the grating at the top of the electrical box casing has rusted, and the bottom connectors look fine, so it might be a moisture issue). We've had ridiculous amounts of prolongued rain this year. Condensation occurs when warm moist heated air touches something cold like metal which cools relatively quickly after the sun goes down. In absence of insulation and vapor barrier, next step is a fan to move lots of air when firing and during cool down to keep evaporating moisture and even out surface temps. Most moisture will collect in the warmest air then condense on colder surfaces. The bottom of your kiln has a pretty decent updraft throughout firing and during cool down. Stick a decent fan in the room with some way for the air to circulate and get out this will slow the corrosion thing down significantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Msheffield Posted October 28, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2021 32 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said: Condensation occurs when warm moist heated air touches something cold like metal which cools relatively quickly after the sun goes down. In absence of insulation and vapor barrier, next step is a fan to move lots of air when firing and during cool down to keep evaporating moisture and even out surface temps. Most moisture will collect in the warmest air then condense on colder surfaces. The bottom of your kiln has a pretty decent updraft throughout firing and during cool down. Stick a decent fan in the room with some way for the air to circulate and get out this will slow the corrosion thing down significantly. It's on my back porch, and I notice the water droplets on the underside of the roof in the morning, before the air temperature has warmed up. I went out one morning and saw a water droplet that had splashed onto the kiln. Usually I have it covered with something, but sometimes I don't. Do you think the issue occurs during firing, or is it more of a persistent environmental thing? There is a reasonable amount of airflow, but the back porch is sheltered from the wind because of its location, so it's not exactly a wind tunnel either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted October 28, 2021 Report Share Posted October 28, 2021 3 hours ago, Msheffield said: Do you think the issue occurs during firing, or is it more of a persistent environmental thing? There is a reasonable amount of airflow, but the back porch is sheltered from the wind because of its location, so it's not exactly a wind tunnel either. If warm heated air touches something that is at the dew point temperature then it condenses or sweats. A cold glass of beer on a hot humid day and the moisture pops out of the air as soon as it touches the cold glass. So elevated temps in the room hold moisture which when they touch something cold condense. Insulation and vapor barriers keep warm moist air from touching something cold. You are likely not gonna insulate the space and the kiln is gonna make it warm so the simple fix is lots of moving air to evaporate the water and even out the surface temperatures in the space maybe on days when you run the kiln and until it cools reasonably. 99% of all the humidity in that room is from outdoors as humidity migrates from high to low just like water goes downhill. (Unless you also have a greenhouse or showers in there) water droplets condensing mean warm moist air which has lots of space to hold moisture has touched something below the dew point of the air. So insulate to keep the cool surfaces warmer or likely in your case decent amount of moving air so the evaporation rate matches the heat loss rate and the humidity will migrate on its own in and out depending on the outside air without condensing. So the short answer - nearly always a function of the environment, (Except pools, green houses …..) but the heating of the space exacerbates the issue. Often decent ceiling fans solve the ceiling condensation issues on firing days and till cool, else when water condenses on the ceiling then it becomes really humid locally until the water drops evaporate and it migrates to equilibrium outdoors. Stick a decent size fan in there on firing days until the day after, blow it across the ceiling - easy to try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted October 28, 2021 Report Share Posted October 28, 2021 16 hours ago, Msheffield said: Thanks for the input, Mark. I was about to order some sort of washer from Mcmaster, but the shipping is 50 bucks. The connectors are fairly new - I installed them in March. I am figuring they are either loose (or looser than they ought to be), or that the condensation on the tin roof above them has fallen down enough to cause issues (the grating at the top of the electrical box casing has rusted, and the bottom connectors look fine, so it might be a moisture issue). We've had ridiculous amounts of prolongued rain this year. I thought about making my own, but I have no way to fire them at the moment. Thats because they ship UPS and to your island location that is an air freight shipment-you could call and see if they can mail the items? then its back to cheap freight costs This is not the 1st time you have had high shopping costs is my guess-how about shipping them to a mainland friend and they repackage and mail them to you as that can work for many things as well . Thats a work around. ( thought about making my own, but I have no way to fire them at the moment. ) I thoght this kiln still worked -oh well-how about another potter/kiln place fire a few small wahers for you-no glaze needed-should be a easy ask rainy old town you say-Hilo side of big island or top of Kaui (avergae 450 inchs) now thats some rainy spots https://www.kauaitravelblog.com/is-kauai-the-wettest-place-on-earth/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Msheffield Posted October 29, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2021 On 10/28/2021 at 12:59 AM, Bill Kielb said: If warm heated air touches something that is at the dew point temperature then it condenses or sweats. A cold glass of beer on a hot humid day and the moisture pops out of the air as soon as it touches the cold glass. So elevated temps in the room hold moisture which when they touch something cold condense. Insulation and vapor barriers keep warm moist air from touching something cold. You are likely not gonna insulate the space and the kiln is gonna make it warm so the simple fix is lots of moving air to evaporate the water and even out the surface temperatures in the space maybe on days when you run the kiln and until it cools reasonably. 99% of all the humidity in that room is from outdoors as humidity migrates from high to low just like water goes downhill. (Unless you also have a greenhouse or showers in there) water droplets condensing mean warm moist air which has lots of space to hold moisture has touched something below the dew point of the air. So insulate to keep the cool surfaces warmer or likely in your case decent amount of moving air so the evaporation rate matches the heat loss rate and the humidity will migrate on its own in and out depending on the outside air without condensing. So the short answer - nearly always a function of the environment, (Except pools, green houses …..) but the heating of the space exacerbates the issue. Often decent ceiling fans solve the ceiling condensation issues on firing days and till cool, else when water condenses on the ceiling then it becomes really humid locally until the water drops evaporate and it migrates to equilibrium outdoors. Stick a decent size fan in there on firing days until the day after, blow it across the ceiling - easy to try. I could try putting plywood up over the metal? The condensation happens every morning/evening, not just when firing, so I feel like it needs to be an overall fix, though I will try the fan idea too. Thanks for the explanation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Msheffield Posted October 29, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2021 On 10/28/2021 at 5:33 AM, Mark C. said: Thats because they ship UPS and to your island location that is an air freight shipment-you could call and see if they can mail the items? then its back to cheap freight costs This is not the 1st time you have had high shopping costs is my guess-how about shipping them to a mainland friend and they repackage and mail them to you as that can work for many things as well . Thats a work around. ( thought about making my own, but I have no way to fire them at the moment. ) I thoght this kiln still worked -oh well-how about another potter/kiln place fire a few small wahers for you-no glaze needed-should be a easy ask rainy old town you say-Hilo side of big island or top of Kaui (avergae 450 inchs) now thats some rainy spots https://www.kauaitravelblog.com/is-kauai-the-wettest-place-on-earth/ I mean, I could, but when I've asked other companies the answer has always been no. Yes, that can be a good workaround, and I've certainly done it over the years, but I needed to get whatever solution I was going to choose quickly. Went with the porcelain insulators. Again, it's a time issue, and Bill recommended I stay away from homemade, but maybe sometime I'll experiment. Tony Hansen came up with a zircopax formula that I used to make my peephole plugs, so I feel like that could potentially work. Haha, no, I live in Hawaiian Acres, up the mountain in the jungle. We definitely don't get that much rain, but sometimes flooding and this year very consistent rainfall. We didn't get summer at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted October 29, 2021 Report Share Posted October 29, 2021 1 hour ago, Msheffield said: I could try putting plywood up over the metal? The condensation happens every morning/evening, not just when firing, so I feel like it needs to be an overall fix, though I will try the fan idea too. Thanks for the explanation! Plywood ain’t much of an insulator, nor a good vapor barrier so the moist air will get through and condense on the cold metal and ruin your plywood. Use the fan, medium density foam with taped seems (hermetic) would be far better insulation wise and way less of a structural issue. Plywood likely a bad idea. Actually ideal application for high density spray foam. Decent ceiling fans probably far cheaper though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Msheffield Posted October 30, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2021 4 hours ago, Bill Kielb said: Plywood ain’t much of an insulator, nor a good vapor barrier so the moist air will get through and condense on the cold metal and ruin your plywood. Use the fan, medium density foam with taped seems (hermetic) would be far better insulation wise and way less of a structural issue. Plywood likely a bad idea. Actually ideal application for high density spray foam. Decent ceiling fans probably far cheaper though. That's good to know. I was figuring the plywood would get ruined eventually. I'll look into the spray. Do you mean install a ceiling fan on the back porch and keep it running at night? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted October 30, 2021 Report Share Posted October 30, 2021 4 hours ago, Msheffield said: Do you mean install a ceiling fan on the back porch and keep it running at night? Yep, I do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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