Toxic mold in clay?

[Bill Kielb]

2 hours ago, Marcie Wolf said:

I've been wondering about this same issue. I have multiple chemical sensitivity - that means I react to chemicals, perfumes, dryer sheets exhaust, etc. It is a very real problem

I am with you - can’t tolerate most scents including perfumes etc…. I will say clays in general are not artificially scented. Mold is everywhere and anywhere waiting for food and environmental conditions to grow.  For me good housekeeping and peroxide definitely have allowed my clays to stay colony free. As far as scent sensitivity -  perfumes, dryer sheets, garbage bags …… air fresheners, just about everything artificially scented I just can’t tolerate and my only recourse is to distance myself. I used to drive past a proctor and Gamble plant everyday and sneezed for the next five miles.  At least no ocular migraine I guess. You never know it’s definitely an individual response.

[Mark C.]

I myself cannot stand the smells/scents in most items and have learned to avoid them all. I'm hyper sensitive to them. You find alternatives to them all (dryer sheets for example are not needed same with all perfumes and sented deturgents)

yes the same with (chemicals, perfumes, dryer sheets exhaust) ,that said I have 50 years in with clay and do not feel that those apply at all to clay and pottery. Yes the burn off has some smell so I avoid it especailly wax. Clay can mold buts it never been an issue. More dry skin issues with in and out of clay and water. Now there is an issue. Now working with clay wedging and carring 10 tons 12 times a year for decades ,well that a bit different on the body

I think clay is not for everyone.

If you read the fine print on your credit card statement (if you have one) you will see thats its also not what you thought . A bit like the warning on a box of clay which has about 10,000  less words

[Kelly in AK]

Mold is a fungus. Bacteria and viruses are different. Chemical sensitivities and acquired allergies are their own domains of human ailments. Beyond infection, bacteria and fungi can also produce chemicals that are harmful and poison us. That said, they’re all at play all the time. Clay is a wet, sloppy, beautiful medium for nasty things to grow in.

It sounds like a wonder anyone lives through it. Most people (and I mean the vast majority of people through human history) are not adversely affected by clay. Just like we’re not affected by the dust we breathe, the crap on our fingers when we eat French fries, the dirt between our toes, or the water we drink. This may not be welcome news to the worried, but if clay was going to hurt you you’d be long dead by now. 

My view is that it’s less about any particular fungus, chemical, or bacteria and more about what you and your physiology will bear. Exposure beyond what our bodies can tolerate, of any pathogen, leads to illness. That’s a dynamic factor. People do die of fungal infections that come from molds we’re all exposed to constantly. People can develop life threatening sensitivities to substances that are fairly common. The fact that you’re alive is a testament to your body’s ability to mitigate all the factors that could destroy it. 

Your conscious awareness is an inextricable part of the process (“You” and “your body” are the same thing). If the water in the bucket stinks, throw  it out for goodness sake!

If something makes you sick you ought to stop doing it. 

[Denice]

This mold discussion brought up a memory of mixing beer in a batch of clay so it would get plastic faster and have better mold.   I don't know if it really works,  we were just following instructions of the MA  students.    Denice

[Hulk]

"I'm trying to decide if I should forgo clay. "

My experience, no sensitivity to Studio consumables (clays, glazes, underglazes, wax resist, glaze materials), nor funky buckets of slop (clay reclaim, slop in the throwing bucket left for several days, etc.).
So far.
I do keep the Studio wiped down and mopped up - active and proactive dust controls.

So, I consider myself lucky.

Sensitivity to some smelly stuff - hair spray, hair goo, detergent, fabric softener, dryer sheets, body wash/spray, deodorant, perfume, cologne - can ruin my day.
I retired early on account of an intolerable putrid rank of a sickening workplace*.
Headaches, dizziness, nausea, eye pain, sore throat... - the usual symptoms - ramped up over the course of fifteen years or so.
A side benefit of all the mask wearing these last few years, a well fitted N95/P100 reduces airborne smell exposure, a lot!
Holding my breath - looking to get upwind, fast - and awareness of getting "it" on my fingers is second nature by now.
I don't go anywhere without first considering how I'll get upwind and/or well away, fast.
It can be awkward when folks come to the house, heh.

If working with clay made me feel sick, I'd very likely chuck it, entire, and look into somewhat else.

*wow, guess I'm not quite over that!

[Denice]

When I was a decorator I would have to turn down jobs because of the chemicals they used in nearby rooms.   I never know when I am going to have a reaction and quit breathing.  It would be nice to sneeze or cough.  letting me know that there is something in the air.   I usually can get outside before I collapse,  one time I was in a hardware store and they started demonstrating a new product.  My husband notice that I was acting odd and decided I needed fresh air,  by the time we got to the door I slumped down to the floor.   He managed to get me outside.   Have been hospitalized  for insect spray and another for mowing the grass.   I have been around clay mold for 50 years and built up a tolerance to it.  Yeah! Denice

[Callie Beller Diesel]

I don’t think anyone here is going to tell you not to worry at all ever, or call you a liar about your body’s reactions to things. I think we try and advocate for the right amount of worry, and if you have sensitivities, you DO have more to pay attention to. IN GENERAL, *if* you don’t have preexisting medical conditions or risk factors, you shouldn’t develop mould problems from the stuff in clay. Most of the stuff we work with can cause irritations like coughing or abrasion related contact dermatitis, but not usually assorted immune responses such as raised histamine levels or anaphylaxis. The original poster on this thread didn’t indicate any prior issues with mould toxicity, so we were addressing the question from that standpoint.

As many have already mentioned, your own body and the specific mould generating the mycotoxins you’re reacting to are the big deciding factors. If you are allergic to one of the bacteria or moulds in clay, then continuing clay work may or may not be advisable. It’s the ever occurring answer to anything in clay: it depends. 

The information on mould toxicity I’ve seen indicates that sensitivities and reactions to mould depend on exposure levels, frequency, and a wide host of other possibilities including your physiology and the specific bacteria/mycotoxin. It’s not impossible for clay bucket cultures to cause issues, but there are other more likely sources like your food, gum disease, or a contaminated home/workplace. If you’re going out to clay class once a week, your exposure is going to be a lot less than if you work everyday in your humid basement studio that is never mopped. Good studio hygiene will also limit exposure. It’s possible for long term exposure to cause issues, but the research also shows it’s possible for some to develop resistances or even for the problems to resolve.  (Denice just chimed in with exactly that happening as I’m typing this.)

I have to stress that no one here is a doctor, and we can’t give you specific medical advice. Even if someone is a doctor, it’s illegal for a medical professional to do so publicly on the internet. If you’ve got specifics, you definitely need to consult with your medical provider. If they’ve been doing their due diligence and looking after you properly, they should have all of your history and be able to take your circumstances into account.

[Picwa]

I monitor myself periodically for mycotoxins.   The first test after taking up clay crafts as a hobby showed markedly elevated Ochratoxin A, Mycophenolic Acid, and Zearalenone.   Abstaining from clay work for a month, I re-tested and the Mycophenolic Acid and Zearalenone had disappeared, the Ochratoxin A had dropped to half (which would be expected, as it has a 35-day half-life in the human body).  
Taking up clay crafts as a hobby was the only thing that changed in my environment or routine.
I talked to the instructor -- she had never heard of this. 
It occurred to me, since clay grows mold,  the mycotoxins will persist if the clay is recycled, even if the mold itself is destroyed.  But she said all the clay she sells is virgin, i.e. first time use.
So this is one person's report, but the evidence is pretty strong that a significant level of mycotoxins are in clay, even when the clay appears to be premium first-use material.
"Mycotoxins in clay" -- No one seems to know about this, because a Google search of "clay" and "mycotoxins" references only the use of clay as a binder for extracting mycotoxins from where they are not wanted.  Except, of course, for the reference that led me here.
This seems like a big deal, especially since a lot of people who work in clay are older and  have medical conditions that would be adversely affected by mycotoxins.

[Callie Beller Diesel]

I’m not going to tell anyone their experience is invalid, but I am going to point to the response I made right above yours.  As you pointed out, there’s not a lot of info on mycotoxins in clay, but at a glance there’s a LOT of it regarding medications, grain storage and animal feed. 

Humans have worked with clay for centuries, and of all the health issues that are prevalent, assorted mould allergies or contact reactions do make the list. You can smell the petrichor when you open the bag, and see the spots. Clay that you buy from a supplier at some point was part of a river bank, and it doesn’t get washed or anything before the components get sieved and mixed, so it should be no surprise that things grow in it, whether its “fresh” or reclaimed. In fact it’s relatively common practice to encourage a certain amount of mould growth in clay for plasticity, and for otherwise healthy folks, it’s not an issue. Keyword there is healthy.

If you’re immunocompromised for any reason, the advice is first and foremost to discuss with your doctors and other healthcare providers. 

 

[MLSrunner]

On 5/20/2023 at 7:30 AM, Picwa said:

I monitor myself periodically for mycotoxins.   The first test after taking up clay crafts as a hobby showed markedly elevated Ochratoxin A, Mycophenolic Acid, and Zearalenone.   Abstaining from clay work for a month, I re-tested and the Mycophenolic Acid and Zearalenone had disappeared, the Ochratoxin A had dropped to half (which would be expected, as it has a 35-day half-life in the human body).  
Taking up clay crafts as a hobby was the only thing that changed in my environment or routine.
I talked to the instructor -- she had never heard of this. 
It occurred to me, since clay grows mold,  the mycotoxins will persist if the clay is recycled, even if the mold itself is destroyed.  But she said all the clay she sells is virgin, i.e. first time use.
So this is one person's report, but the evidence is pretty strong that a significant level of mycotoxins are in clay, even when the clay appears to be premium first-use material.
"Mycotoxins in clay" -- No one seems to know about this, because a Google search of "clay" and "mycotoxins" references only the use of clay as a binder for extracting mycotoxins from where they are not wanted.  Except, of course, for the reference that led me here.
This seems like a big deal, especially since a lot of people who work in clay are older and  have medical conditions that would be adversely affected by mycotoxins.

I have been searching my house endlessly ( 4 years now) looking for mold as I have high levels of both Ochratoxin A and Mycophenolic Acid. Our entire house has been torn up. My office is empty right now and we have torn out a wall to look inside....... and yet no sign of mold or water damage. I have been banging my head against the "literal" wall trying to figure this out and then it suddenly  occurred to me that I have an issue in my office and in my bedroom. Both of those rooms have clay on the walls!!!! I have the HLA gene, the MTHFR gene and even the last gene that makes me one of the most sensitive to mold. It is a real thing. 

[Bill Kielb]

3 hours ago, MLSrunner said:

have been searching my house endlessly ( 4 years now) looking for mold as I have high levels of both Ochratoxin A and Mycophenolic Acid. Our entire house has been torn up. My office is empty right now and we have torn out a wall to look inside....... and yet no sign of mold or water damage. I have been banging my head against the "literal" wall trying to figure this out and then it suddenly  occurred to me that I have an issue in my office and in my bedroom. Both of those rooms have clay on the walls!!!! I have the HLA gene, the MTHFR gene and even the last gene that makes me one of the most sensitive to mold. It is a real thing. 

These seem to be very specific compounds / derivations of mold. Have you considered real mold testing and counts and characterization of mold present in your environment along with indoor air quality measurements.  It might quantify and explain this as well as your doctors and hygienist may be able to suggest air filtration as a staple for you regardless of the origination. Most mold originates in the outside environment and then just finds ideal conditions for growth. Testing could reveal your area and environment are conducive to its growth providing some path to minimizing your exposure. Medical grade hepa very likely traps 99% of the spores so this could possibly be something that would help clay or no clay. Mycotoxins may be too small to filter but filtering mold could reduce the potential of specific molds that produce mycotoxins. 

Anyway, this seems that real certified testing could help point you in a clearer direction than just searching for an origin. Understanding the origin (likely outdoors) and ways to modify your indoor environment (humidity, temperature, filtration) maybe could provide a path to reduction. Understanding if your current outdoor environment is high in these spore counts may also provide another strategy towards minimizing infiltration. My opinion, real air born testing inside and outside your home by a certified hygienist and real lab analysis could provide quantifiable help with your situation.

I would measure first and foremost before demolition. Demolishing things can lead to spreading mold around. Most mold remediation is done carefully so as not to spread, then everything is cleaned, hepa vacuumed and new samples and swabs taken before clearing the area.

Edited Friday at 05:50 AM by Bill Kielb