Vinegar vs. slip

[liambesaw]

1 minute ago, Min said:

Whatever works for you and your methods is the right way to do it.

Spit, magic water alone or mixed with slip, magic water / slip / paper fibres, water, vinegar, casting slip... doesn't matter as long as it works. 

But you're not curious as to WHY!?

lol, I spent more time than I care to admit researching the possible acetate salts that could be formed by mixing clay and vinegar at room temperature.  There are some!  A lot of acetate salts are also sticky and goopy, so it's possible that there is something more than snake oil going on there.

I'll have to do some experiments to verify, but I have some ideas on how to test it.  Will report back when I get around to it 

[Magnolia Mud Research]

1 hour ago, liambesaw said:

have to do some experiments to verify, but I have some ideas on how to test it.  Will report back when I get around to it

Make sure it’s round. 

[Min]

2 hours ago, liambesaw said:

But you're not curious as to WHY!?

Always!

 

 

[Rick Wise]

Since asking this question I've been doing some experiments using (1) magic water (2) Spooze or (3)  mix of clay, tissue paper, vinegar and water -- attaching handles to overly dry cups.    I have to say that (3) appears to be a clear winner.

[AlachuaArtist]

On 8/6/2020 at 2:54 PM, Rick Wise said:

Pres -- you say you like and use Magic Water.  I know the recipe, but not how its used.  Am I correct that you use it along with plain slip?  Or do you make the slip with the Magic water?

My pieces (tiles) are quite large, so I would need a LOT of spit.

[Sorcery]

On 10/12/2020 at 11:25 AM, AlachuaArtist said:

so I would need a LOT of spit.

Or a St. Bernard, or a Komodo Dragon!

.....

I'm with Neil.

Phil also talks about scoring is to change the orientation of the particles, so they don't shrink different etc...

I think that is the most important consideration.

"Magic" anything is just a bandaid over something that can be more simply, and properly adjusted. 

We work with clay, not against it.

I believe adjusting the particles to work well together is the very thing we do.

Aim small miss small, I have been trying to think as molecular as possible. 

Plus the pets and kids can drink from this bottle and not catch ill.

I'm all for making tools, but short a machine with 18 inches of rotating teeth, (think vaccuum roller) that you can press slabs into like a table saw, this Tool is Necessary for me.

Though growing out a thumbnail to carve into a good scraper has crossed my mind.

KISS.

Sorce

 

 

[Min]

Just as different clays have different drying requirements, ie a course open fireclay body can usually be dried much faster than a body containing a lot of ball clay, the method of joining and successfully drying joins can differ. Josh Deweese follows Walter Keelers approach and doesn't score, works for him, other people swear by scoring, it doesn't matter, what works does. When we do the attachments, how we dry them, what clay body we are using, how much moisture is in the pieces being joined, studio humidity and so forth are some of the variables and can differ from potter to potter and claybody to claybody. I don't think there is a one size fits all approach. 

[liambesaw]

I've found every method works really well as long as the clay and handle are the same amount of wet.  Like when I'm using porcelain I have to put my handles on wet usually, just because I throw at night and do handles in the morning and a lot of time (especially this time of year) my mugs and jugs will still be pretty moist when I wake up.  Something I've adapted to.

[Mosey Potter]

Over the years I came to make my own slip with very little water in it, using Darvan to get the right consistency. I used wheel trimmings for the clay. There is a balance between the amount of water and the amount of Darvan that must be used so that the slip is not a gel. Unfortunately over the years i developed an intuitive recipe and just added what seemed to be the right amount at the time I made my slip - I never took the time to weigh out the parts to come up with a recipe that I could share. I did tons and tons of logo mugs and never scored the mug or the logo with this slip. For handles I would score the mug only at the rim, never scored the join at the bottom or the handle itself. I probably didn't need to score at all but I developed the habit 25 years ago when I was starting out and just kept doing it. Probably made 25K mugs over the years (when all I made was mugs) using this slip concoction - I tried using just vinegar at one point on the advice of Ron Roy and if I recall correctly that I could not reposition anything, once the two pieces of clay touched each other with the vinegar, it was stuck on, and stuck good. When I made mugs I often had to move the piece of clay with the logo stamped into it somewhat to get it in the right place, so instant sticking was not good for my purposes. My slip allowed a short window of time when I could slide the handle or logos around  a bit to get the right positioning. Nothing worse than a logo that has been attached crooked!

If any brave soul wishes to try to create this type of slip without a recipe, here is what I did:

I used an empty half quart yogurt container, filling it full with clay trimmings. Then I would add small amounts of water stirring with a stick until the clay was moistened but still pretty clumped together. At that point I would start adding Darvan and when the slip got wet enough, I used my immersion blender to get good mixing, adding Darvan as needed.

I knew I had the right amount of water:Darvan when, after the container had sat overnight with the lid on, there was a tiny amount of water on the surface. I would mix well with a stick before using. And, as time went by (especially in hot summer months) I would add additional water to the slip to make up for water lost by evaporation. If the slip was too gelled, I would add water. You get a feel for it when you work with it all the time, eh?

I do not know if this would work with stoneware as I used porcelain. But I can't think of any reason that it wouldn't. 

 

[Mosey Potter]

Some may be interested in trying this out to make your own slip. It's not the same as mine but may be worth experimenting with!

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/527ac372e4b0d4e47bb0e554/t/527fd2c3e4b0f4289e51a78d/1384108739871/Stick-up+slip.pdf

[Rick Wise]

Mosey

Thanks for this thoughtful description. I will try it. 

You say: "I would mix well with a stick before using."  How would you describe the consistency after this mix?  Pudding?  Room temp butter?  Syrup? Sour cream?

 ( I think I must be hungry)

[Bill Kielb]

1 hour ago, Mosey Potter said:

I knew I had the right amount of water:Darvan when, after the container had sat overnight with the lid on, there was a tiny amount of water on the surface. I would mix well with a stick before using. And, as time went by (especially in hot summer months) I would add additional water to the slip to make up for water lost by evaporation. If the slip was too gelled, I would add water. You get a feel for it when you work with it all the time, eh?

Only thing I can add here as most  methods have worked well For me. One of interest for high volume stuff would be the super slip if you will. Made using as much clay and as little water aided by some Darvan to be super dense. When ready to use, just take a small amount and deflocculate and mix to a super pasty consistency separately. So very sticky and proportionately does not shrink a bunch. Ends up like clay glue. Aside from that for difficult porcelains, outlining the joint and compressing the clay at the connection was almost necessary to ensure no hairline crack would develop. This was important for clear glazed very white porcelain as any little defect becomes obvious. The handle joint being seamless with no defect was difficult to achieve without thorough compression in the form below regardless of attachment method.

[Mark C.]

The thing is slip made from what ever clay you are using is best because its the same makeup as the attachment clays-the very same so shrinkage and compatibility are always the best.

Yes you can use just about anything from motor oil to karo syrup but to be clear the slip made from your clay is the same stuff as your clay you are trying to work with.

all the rest can and will work but for me I learned long ago that using the same clay just makes the most sense-plus I have the slip every day on my hands that I throw so its easy to harvest it.

I like my motor oil in my trucks nd my syrups on my waffles(real mapel is best) -its really best used in those applications.

one tip is if it shows a small crack in the dry green state just use a pointed stick and rub it out. It will not show later in most cases.Thats my tip of the week.

[liambesaw]

2 minutes ago, Mark C. said:

one tip is if it shows a small crack in the dry green state just use a pointed stich and rub it out. It will not show later in most cases.Thats my tip of the week.

Yep just burnish it in.  I have a special pointy stick I use, it's very special and pointy.  Some people call it a chopstick.

[Bill Kielb]

53 minutes ago, liambesaw said:

Yep just burnish it in.  I have a special pointy stick I use, it's very special and pointy.  Some people call it a chopstick.

I have that stick! Also have good luck on  some items with the ball bearing ended stick.