satin matte glazes - earthy tones

[Laurène Ashley]

Hello all, 

I'm trying to collaborate on a project with a boutique and they are wanting some specific glazes that I don't have on hand.  Being quite a newbie to the glaze formulating world, I was hoping to get some tips from the more seasoned potters out there.   I have a few books, but not seeing exactly what they are looking for...  I did explain that I wouldn't be able to duplicate exactly what was in the photo, but would do my research on finding something in the same tones.  

They would like me to make chawans using matte/satin glazes with earthy tones.  (see photos).. I'm also using a ceramic kiln in a studio that only fires to cone 5/6, and don't have a wood firing or reduction option for the moment.  Is this even possible? 

I should also add that I will be using a black clay that only goes to cone 5.  If you all have any good recipe sources or recipes that you would be willing to share, I would be greatly appreciative.  I've already found a few things on glazy. 

 

Thanks in advance!

Laurene

 

[BlackDogPottery]

These look like wood fired pots. I'm not too studied on wood fire but they were probably high fired as well.  Satin glazes are a little easier to work with the higher you go. Have you thought about trying out some slips and burnishing them ?

[Callie Beller Diesel]

That second image is probably shino, and is likely wood fired. You're correct, you're not going to get those directional flame marks without either a LOT of intensive testing and a really good hand with a sprayer, or actual flame.

If your client wants something with a bit of that tea ceremony feel to it, I think you have some things close to that wheelhouse already in your Instagram feed. If you use that dark clay, and go with a carved and/or pinched surface so that the greenish glaze breaks and pools, you'll get some of that sensibility. I tagged you in a couple of your posts, so you know what I'm talking about. That particular glaze looks promising. If you want a beige colour, and that's one you're mixing yourself, you might just try removing the current colourant from the base glaze and do some tests with rutile for a beige, or iron for an amber.

[PeppernPatches]

 both are wood fired pots, reduction fired for at least 48 hrs. the first image might be shino, but the second is very likely from an anagama kiln with no glaze. It would be very difficult to come close to having a cone 6, 12 hr firing look like those images.  Will you fire oxidization? I think creating texture on the clay body, and layering glazes would be helpful to achieving something that might pass for your clients, but it will be a great challenge to make it feel a wood fired piece. Good luck experimenting! 

[neilestrick]

Personally, I think you're approaching this the wrong way. If they don't want YOUR work, they way you make it, then find somewhere else to sell your work. It's up to you to create a body of work and market it to the shops. If they don't want it, then move along. Don't get caught up in letting them dictate what  you make. You'll go nuts trying to please them. Yes, accept constructive criticism, as they know what sells at their shop, but not every shop is going to be a good fit for your work. Making a new line of glazes is no small order, and they probably don't realize that.

[Callie Beller Diesel]

Totally what Neil said.

I think it's okay to riff off of something you're already making, or alter an existing item slightly if it was a direction you think might be kind of interesting anyways.  Ask the client to trust your taste. Presumably they came to you in the first place because they like what you're doing. 

[Joseph Fireborn]

I agree with Neil. I did a few custom order stuff when I first started selling. I ended up bailing just because people think ceramics is like painting.  They have no idea what all goes on. It's not worth the effort. Make what you like and find people who like it too.

[Laurène Ashley]

Thanks so much everyone!  I appreciate your feedback!  The shop belongs to a friend of mine and I agreed to it as a challenge to do something different... But you're right Joseph, they have no idea what goes into ceramics.  

I only have access to an electric kiln and a raku kiln, so I'll have to work with what I have. 

 I figured that those 2 pieces were probably wood fired.  

7 hours ago, Callie Beller Diesel said:

If your client wants something with a bit of that tea ceremony feel to it, I think you have some things close to that wheelhouse already in your Instagram feed. If you use that dark clay, and go with a carved and/or pinched surface so that the greenish glaze breaks and pools, you'll get some of that sensibility. I tagged you in a couple of your posts, so you know what I'm talking about. That particular glaze looks promising. If you want a beige colour, and that's one you're mixing yourself, you might just try removing the current colourant from the base glaze and do some tests with rutile for a beige, or iron for an amber.

Thanks Callie, the glaze is actually a creamy white glaze, that looks beige on the black clay.  I'm going to play around with some other neutral colored glazes on the black clay to see how they react.  They want something a bit more matte and that is a glossy glaze. 

[Laurène Ashley]

Found this glaze on while searching the net... could this be right?  Cone 5 ox?  I can't really figure out the difference between the ones on the left and right.   I'm assuming Nephi/sienak is Neph Sy?

 

[neilestrick]

They're adding silicon carbide to the glaze to create localized reduction. It's a touchy thing, easy to get too much silicon carbide and cause cratering, as you see in the photos. Typically uses a very fine mesh silicon carbide, like 800-1000 mesh.

[Joseph Fireborn]

Anything is possible. With enough time and effort you could create something that looked very similar to a wood fired object. Anyone who knows wood fired ware would immediately know the difference when they held it. 

I have done a lot of testing with silicon carbide. I have 1200 mesh in the studio right now. It still has craters although they are very tiny. Everything I have read about it says that you want to use fluid glazes so after the local reduction happens the glaze will seal back over and not be so cratered. I know very little about wood firings, but I was under the assumption most shino glazes are made to be very stiff in melt.

So that will be kind of a tricky situation to find. If do you decide to work with SiC please post the results I love looking at them. I have never seen those tiles before. I am going to mix up a batch of that and see what it looks like sprayed on just for kicks.

I just dug this up, but it since your going this route, this is the smallest I could get the craters to be : 

This was with 1200 mesh SiC. I am sure with more testing and patience I could maybe even push it further. That red is a localized reduction of copper. Very pretty.  Just be aware what your going for could very well be a rabbit hole! 

 

[neilestrick]

@Joseph F the black clay you're using on those tests probably isn't helping any, and could be the cause of some of the glaze issues. I would test it on a white clay and see if it does any better.

[Joseph Fireborn]

2 hours ago, neilestrick said:

@Joseph F the black clay you're using on those tests probably isn't helping any, and could be the cause of some of the glaze issues. I would test it on a white clay and see if it does any better.

Maybe so. I didn't test it, but in the past this SIO stuff fires pretty clean.

SIO-2 Black Ice. That is single fired tiles.  The chunks of stuff you see in the tiles was sand off the table I was working on. I had just wedged in some sand into some other clay. 

Every other black clay I have tried was awful. This stuff is amazing, but its terrible to throw. I just use it as a slip now. It is around $1.50 a pound. high dolla. 

@Laurène Ashley

I mixed up some of that LAU 3 that you posted. I dipped 4 tiles with different thicknesses and I sprayed a bottle with it as well. I will post results probably in day. Firing it now. 

So we should be able to see application differences in the SiC.

[Denice]

I did a bunch of testing on a black clay and only came up with one glaze that I like.  The clay was very coarse it was hard to hand build with even,  I decided it wasn't worth the trouble.  Denice

[Joseph Fireborn]

51 minutes ago, Denice said:

I did a bunch of testing on a black clay and only came up with one glaze that I like.  The clay was very coarse it was hard to hand build with even,  I decided it wasn't worth the trouble.  Denice

Most black clays are awful. I have tried a bunch of them. SIO-2 Black Ice is a completely different subject. The colors on it are just like porcelain, blues are blue, greens are green, whites are white. The black underneath rarely plays a role in the color or the surface... However I don't want to derail this thread anymore than I have already. I was just showing an example of pitting even with a glossy melting glaze and a really fine SiC mesh.

My firing wont be over until 12-1PM tomorrow.  So I doubt I will have any thing to post for the Lau 3 until Thursday morning. I will post pictures though, no matter how pitted it is lol.

[Laurène Ashley]

@Joseph F Awesome!  I can't wait to see the results!   I'm using Cassius Basaltic clay by Aardvark and it fires to a maximum of cone 5... And I realize it's going to take a lot of experimenting to get what I'm looking for.   I've found a few "fake shinos" on glazy.org, so I'm hoping to get those mixed and tested soon.  The glaze on your test tiles are beautiful!!

@neilestrick I've never used silicon carbide before.  So basically you just add it to the glaze recipe using a fine mesh?  Looks like the 0.4% yielded the best results. 

 

[neilestrick]

Just now, Laurène Ashley said:

@Joseph F Awesome!  I can't wait to see the results!   I'm using Cassius Basaltic clay by Aardvark and it fires to a maximum of cone 5... And I realize it's going to take a lot of experimenting to get what I'm looking for.   I've found a few "fake shinos" on glazy.org, so I'm hoping to get those mixed and tested soon.  The glaze on your test tiles are beautiful!!

@neilestrick I've never used silicon carbide before.  So basically you just add it to the glaze recipe using a fine mesh?  Looks like the 0.4% yielded the best results. 

 

0.4% may work, but it totally depends on the glaze. I've had glazes where 0.4% causes massive cratering. Some will need half that much. It's just a matter of testing.

[Joseph Fireborn]

If your serious about SiC testing you need to do incremental test from low amounts to high amounts for each glaze as it will differ depending on each glaze. At least in my experience this has been the case. I used .4% in the test I did. I used the exact same recipe that you posted. I am curious to see how mine comes out vs his. I have a very slow downfire so who knows how that will effect the results. 

Cassius Basaltic is a cone 5 black clay right? Do you use that all the time? If not then I wouldn't start with SiC testing on that clay as it can be difficult from what I have read here about it. I never tried it, but I looked up stuff about it before ordering it and decided not to. 

Another option is to do currie test with incremental changes in the already mixed cups. Find a "fake" shino base you like, run a currie grid method on it. Fill the 35 tiles with the base. Then using the incremental addition method I outlined in the currie grid section. Add .1% SiC into each cup, mix and distribute to the grids. Repeat this for .2 .3 .4 .5. Then you will have 210 glazes to look at. You can see how the flux/clay ratios mingle with the SiC. I have been meaning to do this for a while now since I figured out this method to estimate the cup gram amount. I just haven't gotten around to it because I have been pretty happy with my current work. But I wouldn't mind doing some grid test. Maybe if this Lua 3 shows some potential I will try it out. 

Edit: In case your wondering what I am talking about above, here is the link to my discussion on additional currie method, about halfway down the page you will see a long post from me detailing the process, along with a link to adjust ratios.

 

 

[glazenerd]

Laurene:

i have an possible alternate solution to help replicate this look. Looking at the clay colors only, I see a red earthenware and a buff stoneware body. They also make a Redstone body that has colors along the terra cotta line. If you used a Redstone and buff stoneware bodies of nearly equal COE, cut and stack layers of each: then throw the form to produce a strata look.you can alter the layers by the thickness of each stacked layer. Along the lines of this example, but using only two stoneware colors. Then it just a matter of selecting a glaze.  Just a thought.

Nerd

[Laurène Ashley]

@Joseph F Cool! Thanks!  The Cassius is a cone 5 black.  I read a bit about the clay that you're using and seems to be a better option since it doesn't effect the glaze you use.  I have a ton of the Cassius to go through though, so I'll have to make do with that at the moment.  Where did you order the SIO-black ice?    Are you doing the Lae 3 test on he black clay?

[Joseph Fireborn]

SIO-2 Black Ice isn't the best. I wouldn't use it as your main body if I was you, unless your ok with drying the clay out to a workable state. It comes really wet, too wet to use right out of the bag, which is really annoying considering the price tag. I can't throw anything tall with it unless its super thick, and I have thrown all the cone 6 porcelains I can get my hands on just fine. I even wedged sand and large course grog and I still had problems throwing large with it. Really annoying. I have 200# of it sitting beneath my wedging table. I will eventually go through all of it via slip.

Slip, I found is a better way to use the stuff anyways. I get to throw with my dark iron stoneware body, then coat it with the slip. I get the best of both worlds.  A nice iron body, and a really pretty black surface to glaze. Also the granular specs come through the black slip adding beautiful brown spots in my glaze, but not as often as if the stoneware was just glazed itself. So the combination is something I really like. 

If you want to see test tiles and stuff, I have a black ice section in my gallery I think with some stuff on it. The colors you can get on it are the same as any white clay. 

You can order SIO-2 Black Ice from US-Pigment, I believe. Although with shipping your looking at like 25 dollars for 11 pound bag. Which is how they sell it. I had my supplier order a 250# load for me from their warehouse in Savannah. It was like 470 dollars for 250# of clay. Which I don't even use now because I didn't test properly. When I first got it I just made a bunch of little test pots. Then I was so excited I ordered a bunch. Once I started throwing tall things I realized I had made a mistake, but if you never give up you can always figure out a way to get what you want! Black Slip! Sigh.... really, make sure you really test it before you commit. Rookie mistakes, I make so many. 

I think I did one of the test tiles in a brown stoneware with the black clay slip brushed on it. Although it is the cracked slip version that I use for most of my pots. So it wont be pure SIO-2 clay. But I am not 100% if I did one or not. I think I did because I was just curious what it would look like. So who knows. Maybbbeee? 

We will find out Thursday morning probably. I am off to bed. 

 

[Chilly]

On 23/10/2017 at 8:17 PM, neilestrick said:

Personally, I think you're approaching this the wrong way. If they don't want YOUR work, they way you make it, then find somewhere else to sell your work. It's up to you to create a body of work and market it to the shops. If they don't want it, then move along. Don't get caught up in letting them dictate what  you make. You'll go nuts trying to please them. Yes, accept constructive criticism, as they know what sells at their shop, but not every shop is going to be a good fit for your work. Making a new line of glazes is no small order, and they probably don't realize that.

+ to everything Neil said, and, are they going to pay for your research?  You could disappear down the rabbit hole of glaze design and not reappear for a long time.  In the meantime, you need to eat.

[Joseph Fireborn]

As promised here is my firing of the glaze above. Lau 3. 

I don't think it came out anything like the one you posted. I used a synthetic RIO, which in retrospect I probably should have used a low quality one to get the brownish tones instead of the red tones. Meh. Woops. 

You can see a few places that the SiC caused some bubbles. To me I don't see any local reduction going on anywhere here. I am not sure what it was supposed to look like anyways. It just looks like some type of iron red to me.

I also sprayed some on a bottle and then put a little fake ash over it. I sprayed thick at the top and thin at the bottom just to see if it made any difference. You can also see some SiC bubbles here as well. The gold is a fake ash that turned out really dry on top of this glaze.

I am not sure how wood fired this looks. I think it looks pretty much like a dull matte red with a fake ash sprayed over it. I could see this having potential with a currie test to find the sweet spot with the SiC/Flux/Clay ratio to find the nice reduction but low bubble aspect. Also trying different RIOs. I think the synthetic red was a bit much color. But I didn't think about it when I mixed it up. The interesting thing that I liked the most is where the fake ash was sprayed, the area between the dry fake ash and the red glaze turns into a nice brown area. 

Anyways, just goes to show how badly glazes change from one kiln to the next. Without a lot of testing and adaptation its really hard to just take a recipe and see it doe the same thing. 

If you mix up some I would love to see the results you got. Obviously my SiC had much better results for bubbling than the one in the picture you posted. So again finer mesh gives better results. I should also note that this vase was a brown body with no specs, unlike the tiles which were a red/brown body with specs . So those brown spots I am guessing are the local SiC reduction maybe?

Just doing this SiC test again makes me want to dive down a rabbit hole of currie test and maniac glaze exploration again! Must resist! There is so much potential for exploration into the SiC stuff. I feel like it is a very under explored area for cone 6. Could be some really great stuff hiding under all that boil and bubble trouble.

Close up:

[Mark C.]

On 10/23/2017 at 12:17 PM, neilestrick said:

Personally, I think you're approaching this the wrong way. If they don't want YOUR work, they way you make it, then find somewhere else to sell your work. It's up to you to create a body of work and market it to the shops. If they don't want it, then move along. Don't get caught up in letting them dictate what  you make. You'll go nuts trying to please them. Yes, accept constructive criticism, as they know what sells at their shop, but not every shop is going to be a good fit for your work. Making a new line of glazes is no small order, and they probably don't realize that.

I agree with this 100,ooo %

[Sheryl Leigh]

I'm willing to bet there are woodfired kilns in your area... just sayin' ...