Jump to content


Photo

For New Folks, Red Is Not Santa Suit Red, Usually

it depends on your definition

  • Please log in to reply
59 replies to this topic

#21 oldlady

oldlady

    single firing an electric kiln to cone 6

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,080 posts
  • Locationharpers ferry west va and pinellas park fl

Posted 04 August 2013 - 10:14 PM

how can just a description of the varieties of red result in such feelings of  being deeply hurt?   what are you reading into this that was not there to begin with.?


"putting you down does not raise me up."

#22 oldlady

oldlady

    single firing an electric kiln to cone 6

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,080 posts
  • Locationharpers ferry west va and pinellas park fl

Posted 04 August 2013 - 10:28 PM

my goodness!  some of you are reading something more than a simple description of red as used when talking about glazes.  how can a simple definition insult someone?   who sees themselves being insulted?  i am not putting anyone down, just defining a term.

 

claypple has mentioned tomato red.   that is usually shown in pictures and recipes as an iron red. 

 

thank you bciske for enlarging the discussion with solid facts.

 

Chris, don't forget they also have Zambonies!

 

Jrgpots, having decorum is not something i have ever been accused of.  we are all students, we are all teachers, please, someone teach me what set you all off!

 

benzine, don't taste the glaze before you "bake" it.


"putting you down does not raise me up."

#23 Claypple

Claypple

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 261 posts
  • LocationReno, NV

Posted 04 August 2013 - 10:38 PM

I think it would've been more helpful for you to ask WHY your glaze didn't turn red as supposed rather than blaming your "furious" students.  Or just use a different glaze. Try Mayco maybe? They are more reliable; especially for the beginners.



#24 Benzine

Benzine

    Socratic Potter

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,792 posts
  • LocationThe Hawkeye State

Posted 04 August 2013 - 10:44 PM

Jrgpots, having decorum is not something i have ever been accused of.  we are all students, we are all teachers, please, someone teach me what set you all off!

 

benzine, don't taste the glaze before you "bake" it.

I wouldn't say "Set Off", people just provided evidence contrary to your assertion(s).  You said that getting a food-safe, "Santa Red" with low fire oxidation is both difficult, and fairly toxic.  Several people have posted examples, of how this just isn't true.

 

Also, you can't expect me, to not taste a "Chocolate Brown" glaze, especially when it looks a lot like pudding.


"Anything worth believing, is worth questioning"

#25 oldlady

oldlady

    single firing an electric kiln to cone 6

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,080 posts
  • Locationharpers ferry west va and pinellas park fl

Posted 04 August 2013 - 11:10 PM

claypple, sorry, they were not my students.  i do not teach.  they were talking about a pot one had brought in.  it was clearly a reduction fired piece with melted spots of metal that bled through the covering glaze.  then they were arguing about what color produced a shino piece that was on a shelf.  the instructor is the one i felt sorry for, busy trying to save the shelves.  i did not talk to them at all, just wandered around looking before i left.  there was a very substantial set of reference books on shelves in the corner.  a cursory inspection of any of the basic books would have shown what they were looking at. my problem is just that today's students need basics and to get them is sometimes work which seems to be out of style.


"putting you down does not raise me up."

#26 oldlady

oldlady

    single firing an electric kiln to cone 6

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,080 posts
  • Locationharpers ferry west va and pinellas park fl

Posted 04 August 2013 - 11:11 PM

benzine, i choose to believe that cadmium based glazes should not be used for food.  just like bciske showed above.


"putting you down does not raise me up."

#27 Pam S

Pam S

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 150 posts
  • LocationDurham, NC

Posted 05 August 2013 - 01:14 AM

Oldlady, sorry to say, your original post did come across a bit arrogant. I'm sure that was unintentional. Ah, the nuances of the written word.

 

I'm one of those potters who is always looking for that elusive red cone 6 oxidation, not rust, without using cadmium. Larry just shared a recipe for Candy Apple Red. I'm hoping to try it in the next few weeks. I have seen it done, but so far I haven't been able to replicate the results. I'll also say that I've had some wonderful results layering Coyote, Mayco and Spectrum glazes without scraping shelves. I did test these glazes before using them on pots so I know what runs and what doesn't. It sounds like the students you observed didn't know the glazes they were using. IMHO the instructor should have had the students scraping the shelves! LOL!


"Saving just one dog won't change the world, but it surely will change the world for that one dog."


#28 Benzine

Benzine

    Socratic Potter

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,792 posts
  • LocationThe Hawkeye State

Posted 05 August 2013 - 07:35 AM

benzine, i choose to believe that cadmium based glazes should not be used for food.  just like bciske showed above.

bciskepottery posted information saying that Amaco glazes labeled with the "fork and knife" symbol contain no raw cadmium.  So if a red has this symbol, it would have no raw cadmium.  As I said, I have used several of these, in my classroom.

 

Yes, they might contain encapsulated cadmium, but this is something that is far from being the expensive, overly toxic ingredient, your opening post made it out to be. 

 

Also, you said "Information and facts are not opinions".  But then you say, that you choose to believe, that cadmium based glazes, should not be used for food.  But if they are tested as being safe, then that belief is indeed simply an opinion. 


"Anything worth believing, is worth questioning"

#29 Roberta12

Roberta12

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 167 posts
  • LocationColorado

Posted 05 August 2013 - 10:48 AM

Old Lady, I do agree with your statement about research and education being the responsibility of the student, beginner, in any area.   I would hope that the teacher would encourage that, but that is not always the case.   But yes, there is a lot of great information in the world concerning clay/glaze/chemicals/ etc.  

 

Oh yes, I am still looking for a great red, myself!   Cone 6

 

Roberta



#30 MMB

MMB

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 136 posts
  • LocationHartwell, GA

Posted 05 August 2013 - 11:47 AM

"yes, those guys were figure'n while their instructor was busy grinding excess glaze off 3 shelves with 4 6inch circles of glaze an inch high."

 

What I think is that you tried to assert yourself to these little scoundrels and they told you to bug off because you werent their instructor. Or there is some level of bitterness towards the act that you decided to go have a voice somewhere because you couldnt say anything there.

 

Oldlady do you have grey hair? not salt and pepper gray but like bentonite grey...you know the REAL grey not the other greys or the grey grey Grays... Your first post as many brought out was clearly an arrogant boast of ones "knowledge" and was clearly bashing to those more than likely just excited to find something for themselves. I always enjoyed when in school my science teachers starting off the class by saying "more than likely everything you learn this year could be proved wrong in the next ten years." Its true because what we know as definite in this world is only governed by our limitations. I think about how the grandeur of cone 10 glazes has really been taken back and over the years many have transitioned themselves to Cone 6. What was once thought to be unachievable at one level can now be succesfully achieved. As for the title of this post is plain ignorance. To state that "red" in order to be a REAL RED it has to be that most awful Santa Red. See what I did there? I stated my opinion that I felt the santas red was awful and not a definite red in my eye. Each color has its own spectrum of colors. Ever see the YELLOW freight trucks? there logo is a tint of Orange, but hey theyre calling it Yellow. You should email them.

 

I understand your insistance on safety. It is true that as potters there is much to think about when it comes safety ESPECIALLY if we are providing a product where food is involved. There are so many variables to consider when working with clay and education is necessary. I remember a while back I asked if Paper clay could be used for functional ware. After reading many posts from those I see in here that truely know there stuff I decided that I would not pursue Paper clay for function items. Yet, that was my choice and I am only one person. There are millions of potters out there making choices like the one I made but they might not be making the right one. You cant control that. We all can hope that they take measures to avoid the danger of hurting someone. Also to the potter might say "not for use with food" but hey the consumer might think "I mean it is a cup....so why not put my morning coffee in it." Its in their hands after that.

 

Being upset over others trying to achieve something that you "know" is impossible is just a waste of engergy. You know what statement I see most in the ceramic world? "You dont know till you try." So let them try and try and try again. Let each fail hopefully bring them to the conclusion that theyre wasting their time. And yes if the glaze runs then it RUNS! If anything maybe the instructor needs to tighten up a bit on certain people.

 

Well I got bored in the middle of making this post. Im going to go throw now with my Orange Clay.



#31 Wyndham

Wyndham

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 444 posts
  • LocationSeagrove NC

Posted 05 August 2013 - 01:24 PM

If anyone wants to trip out on something,consider that imports from everywhere but here the fda allows a higher lead leaching percentage than that of domesticly produced dinnerware.

Why?, Money, that's why there are lobbyist in DC.

As to red, there's copper red reduction, chrome/tin red ox, iron red reduction iron red ox cone 6 and all and more to 04 lead chrome red that the Seagrove potters make for years.

How does the FDA make quick spot test of glazes?,it's with a drop of nitric acid over a 24 hr time period. If there is any lead that percentage is computed over a time period and either will met or fail the FDA's test.

 

I would guess you could take an old Seagrove lead glazed plate, break off a shard and tape it to someones tongue and test them a year later for lead poisoning and you would not find a trace.

 

These old time potters lived into there 80's & 90's smoked and drank(in moderation of cource as not to imply an excessive consumption of moonshine, er, spirits) and hand dipped red lead oxide from a barrel, fired if wood fired kilns for most of their lives and died of hard work and old age.

Just another pointless POV :huh:

Wyndham



#32 OffCenter

OffCenter

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,372 posts

Posted 05 August 2013 - 02:00 PM

If anyone wants to trip out on something,consider that imports from everywhere but here the fda allows a higher lead leaching percentage than that of domesticly produced dinnerware.

Why?, Money, that's why there are lobbyist in DC.

As to red, there's copper red reduction, chrome/tin red ox, iron red reduction iron red ox cone 6 and all and more to 04 lead chrome red that the Seagrove potters make for years.

How does the FDA make quick spot test of glazes?,it's with a drop of nitric acid over a 24 hr time period. If there is any lead that percentage is computed over a time period and either will met or fail the FDA's test.

 

I would guess you could take an old Seagrove lead glazed plate, break off a shard and tape it to someones tongue and test them a year later for lead poisoning and you would not find a trace.

 

These old time potters lived into there 80's & 90's smoked and drank(in moderation of cource as not to imply an excessive consumption of moonshine, er, spirits) and hand dipped red lead oxide from a barrel, fired if wood fired kilns for most of their lives and died of hard work and old age.

Just another pointless POV :huh:

Wyndham

 

... and breathed clay dust everyday for decades.


E pur si muove.

"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.

#33 Benzine

Benzine

    Socratic Potter

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,792 posts
  • LocationThe Hawkeye State

Posted 05 August 2013 - 02:08 PM

 

If anyone wants to trip out on something,consider that imports from everywhere but here the fda allows a higher lead leaching percentage than that of domesticly produced dinnerware.

Why?, Money, that's why there are lobbyist in DC.

As to red, there's copper red reduction, chrome/tin red ox, iron red reduction iron red ox cone 6 and all and more to 04 lead chrome red that the Seagrove potters make for years.

How does the FDA make quick spot test of glazes?,it's with a drop of nitric acid over a 24 hr time period. If there is any lead that percentage is computed over a time period and either will met or fail the FDA's test.

 

I would guess you could take an old Seagrove lead glazed plate, break off a shard and tape it to someones tongue and test them a year later for lead poisoning and you would not find a trace.

 

These old time potters lived into there 80's & 90's smoked and drank(in moderation of cource as not to imply an excessive consumption of moonshine, er, spirits) and hand dipped red lead oxide from a barrel, fired if wood fired kilns for most of their lives and died of hard work and old age.

Just another pointless POV :huh:

Wyndham

 

... and breathed clay dust everyday for decades.

 

Yeah, the farm families around here, are probably more at risk, from all the dust kicked up on the gravel roads, than most reasonably cautious potters are.


"Anything worth believing, is worth questioning"

#34 jrgpots

jrgpots

    The hands can express the soul

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 524 posts
  • LocationHurricane, Utah

Posted 05 August 2013 - 02:34 PM

One of my very first glaze project out of the classroom was a chip bowl and salsa dish shaped like jalapeno peppers.  In my naivete, I glazed the peppers "red" with black stems.  The red ended up more of a "rusty wagon red" instead of a hot pepper red.  I just did not know how hard it is to get real reds. 

 

I had heard the story about the japanese potter who had one of his green pots turn red in reduction, could not reproduce it, then comitted suicide by throwing himself in the kiln.  The story goes that all the pots were red.

 

I had heard the story but had not internalized it in my practice.   Now I understand. If we are lucky, the only mistakes we make are the innocent ones.

 

By-the-way, that chip and salsa set ended up in a thrift market.



#35 oldlady

oldlady

    single firing an electric kiln to cone 6

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,080 posts
  • Locationharpers ferry west va and pinellas park fl

Posted 05 August 2013 - 07:54 PM

claypple, have you truly understood what you read?  where did i say that these were my students?  will you please read the things that inflamed you in a few days or have a second person read them and see where i claimed it was my glaze?  please stop criticizing me for telling people that red is not red, and that it could be red instead.

 

MMB, somehow you have written a script for a movie instead of reading what i wrote.  i did not speak to these people.  at all.  i have no stake in their success or failure.  i was merely trying to tell people who might not know that red is not necessarily red.  nobody here has defined EXACTLY what i said that was so "arrogant".  WHAT are you talking about that i wrote that is so offensive to you?

 

anyone else want to take a potshot at me??


"putting you down does not raise me up."

#36 trina

trina

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 437 posts

Posted 06 August 2013 - 08:49 AM

no, but we could go play hockey .... T

#37 OffCenter

OffCenter

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,372 posts

Posted 06 August 2013 - 08:57 AM

no, but we could go play hockey .... T

 

Maybe ask Bobby Or and Bobby Orr to come along, too.


E pur si muove.

"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.

#38 trina

trina

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 437 posts

Posted 06 August 2013 - 09:06 AM

no, but we could go play hockey .... T

 
Maybe ask Bobby Or and Bobby Orr to come along, too.

This is no time for jokes, people are getting way too serious and it makes my eyes wanna roll....T

#39 oldlady

oldlady

    single firing an electric kiln to cone 6

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,080 posts
  • Locationharpers ferry west va and pinellas park fl

Posted 06 August 2013 - 09:16 AM

since this is a pottery forum shouldn't the name be bobby ohr?

 

 

trina, do not worry, i am laughing at all the comments and drama of what people IMAGINE i said.  let us hope they realize how foolish it is to make such ridiculous claims and hit the delete button on the most flagrant ones.


"putting you down does not raise me up."

#40 OffCenter

OffCenter

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,372 posts

Posted 06 August 2013 - 09:48 AM

since this is a pottery forum shouldn't the name be bobby ohr?

 

 

trina, do not worry, i am laughing at all the comments and drama of what people IMAGINE i said.  let us hope they realize how foolish it is to make such ridiculous claims and hit the delete button on the most flagrant ones.

 

That's good, Oldlady! The Ohr thing.

 

You're right the comments did, in some cases, go a little overboard and distorted (or imagined) what you posted. I think it was just your out-of-the-blue preaching without getting some facts straight first. It also makes responses sound worse when we have to address you as "Oldlady". Just be glad there's no negative button anymore. A month or so ago I was down to something like minus 40. I sort of miss it because I was looking forward to seeing how low you had to go to see what was below "bad".

 

Jim


E pur si muove.

"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users