Is it only me. . .

[Babs]

May just be my mood, schools outside this comment, we know many people die on our roads, we use them with care, so I handle toxic chemicals with care and the knowledge of what they can do if I am careless. Poss safer than many of our roads, drivers and teh vehicles on them.

[Mark C.]

I think that in schools it fine to keep out things that could hurt students as the control factor may be absent at times.

That also means weilding gasses and fumes as well as pottery chemicals and other stuff that can get you.

Its to bad its heading down this road-usually by lawyers

Now for studio potters its up to each to decide

I learned about fuming salt wares in school and that stuff is Nasty-heck lusters are nasty-that was a school experence

It made up a part of my ceramic knowledge and experience-I would not trade that for a million$$$s

but I own some  of all that today as I have for 40 years and know how to handle it-(I have not fumed a load in a decade)or used my lusters as well.

same is true with any chemical. its about handling-heck I still have all the acids from chemistry kit from my family as well as bugs in Carbon tetracloride-its about knowing what it is and how to store and handle it.

Life does not come with a warrrenty-you are responsible-this is a learned skill from doing.

Risk is decided by each person and changes over time-always being re-evaluated

Some think my 2,000 scuba dives are risky-my decompression diving at a younger age was risky-

Playing with fire-building kilns-raku where does one draw the line

I would not be the person I am without risks.

Everyone decides this for themselves

I think to anwser your question its only you as its not me-it may be others as well but risk is life at least for me to some degree.

Mark Cortright

[terrim8]

Just had an issue trying to fire some items with slip that contained iron chromate at a city studio. I wasn't aware that iron chromate was that toxic but I am now. I'm saving them though to fire in an outdoor gas kiln. 

A lot of old glaze ingredients can be hazardous but I agree with you Mark about risks and handling things safely. 

[Guest JBaymore]

Iron chromate (hexavalent chromium..... known carcinogen) colored slips/glazes are easy to convert to a far less concerning recipe.  Just add the proper molecular equivalents of red iron oxide and green chromium oxide.  Easy-peasy.  Looks the same.

 

However, I think that any risks to anyone from the firing of that slip or the handling of that ware before firing is minimal to non-existent.  If it is a "line in the sand" issue of no iron chromate in the studio........ well... I guess that is something that must get enforced to bolster a "follow the rules" culture.  But the exposure .... including intensity, frequency and duration aspects.... is nothing to worry about.

 

Handling the dry powder is another story.  But even then.... how much gets handled, under what conditions, and how often.

 

There is a lot of hysteria in the ceramics community about the hazards.  A huge portion of it comes from not really understanding the science side of things.  Simple concepts like parts-per-million, micron particle size, the form of the chemical (oxide, carbonate, sulfate, chloride, etc.), and so on do matter.  Yes... there are things to be concerned about.  But that means an appropriate level of concern.

 

Some folks are equipped with both the knowledge and the facilities to handle more toxic materials than others.   Like in a bio-hazard lab;  some staff working there are OK to work with the e-coli.... others are OK for working with the anthrax. 

 

Understanding the studio safety and toxicology side of the field of ceramics is just one more part of learning about the amazingly broad spectrum of working with clay.  If someone can't pull handles well...... most folks then work at getting better at that aspect.  So if you are weak on the H+S stuff (and the technical side to understand that aspect)........ make an effort to improve your understanding/skills there too.

 

Then you can appropriately evaluate for yourself which materials and procedures you are willing to work with, and which you are not, from a position of accurate knowledge. 

 

For people who are new to the field, and who would be expected to not know, those who are more knowledgeable do need to protect them from their lack of knowledge.  One route to that is to just BAN everything potential hazardous completely.  But a far better route, as soon as is practical, is to provide an accurate education on the subject.

 

I come back to this base concept all the time that everyone seems to want to ignore.  Clay dust is one of the more hazardous things that we are exposed to. It contains free respirable sub-micron silica.  Causes not only silicosis but also cancer.  Intensity, frequency, and duration are really important concepts in this one.  Comparing to the hazard of some dry iron chromate slip on some pots to be fired to the general dust issues in the average studio...... this is like comparing a firecracker to an A-bomb.  If you are concerned about health issues in your studio....... first priority........go after sources of clay dust in your studio.

 

Spend one day working in the studio that you keep a written diary of things you are doing that could get a little bit of clay dust into the air.  Once suspended in the air it typically stays there for over 24 hours.  Watch carefully for indications of this happening.   Sometimes you have to get the light 'right' to see it.   Snapping a dry plastic or wooden bat into place on a dry wheelhead....... poof.  Wiping your hands on the dry towel that wasn't really well washed out yesterday.... poof.  (Ditto for pants or aprons with dry clay.) Throwing down that slab on the dry table top....poof.  Moving used canvas cloth..... arrrrggggghhhhhhh ......poof.  Each one little in and of itself.... sum total potential impact on the air quality...... large.  You'll be amazed when you really start looking for this stuff.

 

best,

 

..................john

[Pres]

I've been reading a lot of SciFi lately on the balance between chaos and order. hmmm I have been in some studios where I felt out of place because of such order. . . afraid to touch something or use or move it because then it would be out of place. I have been in some studios that were so chaotic, unless you lived there you would never find a thing. Lately looking at my studio I have come to realize that things are out of balance, and it is time for a good cleaning. Keeping dust down in a studio is a big problem, and fresh buckets of water and washing and moping seem to be the only ways to keep dust under control. Either that or end up spending your days in a Hazmat suit.

 

The hexavalent Chromium had a movie about it a few years back that starred Julia Roberts. . . Erin Brockovich. It started a whole scare about chromium, where I talked to a lot of potters that seemed to think it was worse than barium in the studio. Hard to convince them otherwise.

 

 

best,

Pres

[glazenerd]

John:

TY for that balanced approach. The bottom line: if you do not know what it is, or how to handle what it is, or have the safety to deal with what it is then don't.

I experiment with many toxic materials: but I would never put them in a product going out the door. Then there is the whole thermal decomposition debate. Although I do think there are a few products that need reviewed again. They make French process zinc with limits far below "safe" levels, and make USP food grade zinc that is put in cosmetics, food, medicine, and zinc tablets. So I do not get the fear of zinc, given all the new processing techniques. Yellow zinc I get, but not all.

Nerd

[oldlady]

pres, thank you for the unexpected and very appropriate laugh.  you know i was a proofreader for a time and cannot get over it.  your tiny typo of moping for mopping reached me after several dirty days of making and applying glazes.  i have been sitting down and moping since i turned the kiln on at 3 pm and i am not yet ready to go back to actual mopping.  mopping countertops, metal shelves, buckets, the floor, the driveway and all the stuff that needs cleaning up.  it is great to laugh out loud after being so tired of being on my feet so long.

 

thank you.

[Ceallach]

On 3/11/2013 at 6:31 PM, Marcia Selsor said:

Because it costs a lot to dispose of toxic chemicals.

In order to thow toxic cheicals away, they must be handled as has-mats and taken to the proper disposal site.

To have the chemicals tested costs a lot.

So, if you can find potters who WANT he barium for their private studio, it would save you a lot of money.

I had a friend in Ohio who took a trailer load of chemicals from the heirs of a potters. It was going to cost them $10,000 to dispose of the chemicals.

She hauled the materials away, advertised them for free and gave them to potters who wanted them. Hazardous or not, if the chemicals are not labeled correctly, they have to be tested to determine if they are toxic.

It is an expensive proposition.

 

Marcia

At one point, I picked up glaze chemicals from a deceased potter's brother....part of that was alot of iron chromate, lead frit and a lead borosilicate frit.  ( I have literally a lifetime supply of CrO and CoCO3)   I had kept them because I was thinking I would use them later on sculpture.....fast fwd 20 years and after the research, turns out that they offgas lead.  So I took the lead ones down to the residential haz materials which is a diversion site.   For residential customers, the disposal was free.    The guy who got it was in disbelief, partly that I had it, but also that I knew what it was, and had triple-bagged it.   

As a side note, I went to UCDavis when Arneson was there, and in the glaze chem class he assigned each person a flux.....but specifically did not give the women anything with lead and stated it.   By that time, he may have known that he had cancer, he died about a year later.   He was a character, but I can picture him in his white lab coat, hair all frowsy, talking about it.  
  

[Marcia Selsor]

you found a great way to dispose of chemicals. I saw Arneson's retrospect at SFMOMA. Very moving as his self portraits progressively reflect the cancer in his brain. 

Marcia

[Ceallach]

 I had at one point walked around a corner at the MOMA and there is Bob's bronze head about 4 feet high.   I felt like I could just sit right down and talk to him..... I asked "oh hey, bob, hows it going?", but he was quite rude and did not answer back.    If you get the chance, tour the UCD campus and see his Eggheads.   Don't forget TB9.

BTW, he actually had liver cancer and was pretty sharp to the end. 

[Marcia Selsor]

yes, cancer of the liver,. I got the sense it was brain cancer from his self portraits. Were you are Davis in the late 70s? My ex was his tech. Maybe you met him.

Marcia