Pugaboo Posted July 19, 2015 Report Share Posted July 19, 2015 Basic setup and operations details: KILN: Olympic 1823HE (high fire UP TO CONE 10) stackable kiln 2 years and 2 months old, bought new CONTROLLER: V6-CF Series 700 50amp breaker with professionally installed electrical conduit and shut off switch Plugged into outlet not hard wired Kiln has been fired 83 times: 39 cone 04 slow bisque 41 cone 6 slow glaze 3 transfer only firings of cone 04 on fast glaze setting Glaze fire is done using the basic Slow Glaze setting on the controller no special programming Glaze firing takes between 7 hour 40 minutes and 8 hour 10 minutes, this one says it took 7 hour 55 minutes. Time variances are known that they are due to the load being fired Controller temperature usual reads between for a cone 6 glaze firing usually reads between 2235 and 2237. It says this time it got to 2237 The issue that occurred: I had something weird happen last night/early this morning with my v6-cf series 700 controller. I started a Cone 6 Slow Glaze firing last night at 5:30pm. It almost always takes around 8 hours to fire so it should end around 1:30am. I usually stay up and monitor it on my camera that I have focused on it so I know everything is going ok. Well last night I fell asleep around midnight and when I woke up at 4:30am I checked the camera and saw no red readout from my digital controller screen. I went down and checked it out as this has never happened before. I made sure the power button was still on for the controller and it was so I cycled it off then back on and still no red power light or red digital readout on my controller screen. I checked the breakers and nothing was thrown and I did not cycle the breakers off and on just looked at their positions. For my set up the breakers run as such: Main breaker panel for the top 2 floors of the house with a subpages breaker leading to a sub panel Sub panel runs the studio level including the kiln. I checked the kiln breaker here as well and it was not thrown either From the sub panel I have a specially professionally wired emergency on off throw lever type switch which the kiln power runs through. I had this installed for the kiln so I can cut power to it when not in use as well as having an emergency power shut off seperated from the sub panel in case something should go wrong and I need to immediately cut power to the kiln. From this throw off switch, the power goes to the dedicated outlet where the kiln is plugged in. The power cord runs from there to the kiln body itself While I was standing at the breaker panel checking the breakers I heard a sound behind me (sort of like the sound you here when you start up your kiln and the switches click on but not quite and more of a buzz sound to it than the normal sharp click) I walked back to the front of the kiln and the red power light and digital panel were both on and working. There were no more sounds so it was not actually running through a cycle even though I had heard a sound a moment before. Only the power to the controller came on the kiln did not start firing again. The digital read out says the firing cycle completed successfully. I ran through the review steps and there are no error messages showing. I read in my kiln manual all the error situations listed and none of them fit. The controller says everything fired properly but if it did why was the controller not on nor did it come on right away when I cycled the switch? How do I figure out what the issue is? Finally the kiln is still cooling so I have no idea if it actually fired normally or not, even if the controller says it did. I won't know that until later this evening when I open and look at the pieces as well as pulling the cone I have in there to see if it's bent properly. Suggestions where to start, what to check, etc??? T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Bridge Pottery Posted July 19, 2015 Report Share Posted July 19, 2015 If you were messing with the breaker when it came back on I would start there. Maybe some loose connection or bad fuse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugaboo Posted July 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2015 High ridge - thank you for mentioning that. I didn't actually touch the circuit breakers I only opened the door and looked to see if they were thrown which they were not. BUT that said I am going to shut down power to the sub panel and check the wire connections to the kiln breaker. I know these wires take a pretty good beating with each firing and can become loose over time so it is the simplest thing to try. Just kind of freaking me out I do not like messing with electricity. The hubby says he will go down with me and walk me through what to do. T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldlady Posted July 19, 2015 Report Share Posted July 19, 2015 sorry this happened but it is a really good post. anyone new to having a kiln should note all of the things you have done to protect your home and your pots. i especially like the records of firings you keep. it is easy to become complacent and just think it will work ok, why bother keeping track. of course, you will be talking to Olympic in the morning. let them have a cup of coffee before you call them, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted July 19, 2015 Report Share Posted July 19, 2015 All the connections on an electric kiln take a beating with heat cycles. They tend to loosen and degrade over time (that is the wires oxidize and heat up more.The curcuit breakers also can go bad. These you need a special tester to check out. I use dielectric grease on the connections and really tighten the connections on cleaned shiny wire.You should check all your connections 1st. Work thru all your paths to kiln power. If they are all fine then its points to the controller for the issue. Make sure with a TESTER that the power is OFF before working on any wire connections. The more connections on that kiln path the more room for issues mentioned above. sounds like you have to start at main panel then your sub panels then kiln box (plug or hardwired). Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Bridge Pottery Posted July 19, 2015 Report Share Posted July 19, 2015 I use dielectric grease on the connections and really tighten the connections on cleaned shiny wire.You should check all your connections 1st. Do you use this on connections inside the kiln or outside the kiln or both? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugaboo Posted July 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2015 Okay an update... I shut off all the power to the house and opened up the breaker panels. I checked all the main breaker screws they were all tight to begin with. I checked the sub panel breaker screws they were all tight to begin with. I checked the shut off lever switch screws and they were all tight to begin with. I unplugged the plug from the wall and it is shiny and free of any sign of corrosion, plugged it back in. I unplugged the 2 interbox twist plugs and they look fine and I plugged them back in. I removed the fuse from the side of the controller and looked at it and it look ok. Turned all the power back on and now the controller won't turn on at all. A dead duck. It came back early this morning but now it's not coming on at all. I am in the middle of a wholesale order that I HAVE to get out. So am panicking a bit. I have been extremely careful with this kiln and have had zero issues up until now. What would cause a controller to just fail like this... assuming it's the controller though I am for the moment. What's my next step? T Can I say HELP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldlady Posted July 19, 2015 Report Share Posted July 19, 2015 terry, if the temp said you had reached 2237 you probably did. a cooldown was not programmed so when the kiln gets cool enough to open, you will probably find that everything is ok with THIS firing. call olympic in the morning for tech help walking you through whatever it could be so your next firing will be ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Min Posted July 19, 2015 Report Share Posted July 19, 2015 Not sure I followed everything but there shouldn’t be any buzzing at the fuse / circuit breaker panel. Since you moved cables around and now there is no power try gently wiggling the twist lock cables etc to see if the power comes back on. You might be lucky and it might be where the cable attaches to the twist lock. As others have said circuit breakers are sometimes faulty, multimeter for a basic check. If there is ample power going to the controller then it's likely a controller issue. This also would be checked with a multimeter. There are some really good informational repair videos on the Paragon site that might help if you are okay with doing more technical electrics if you find any pertain to your problem. http://www.paragonweb.com/Support_Videos.cfm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugaboo Posted July 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2015 Thank you everyone. I went to Walmart and bought a new voltage meter since my 30 year old one couldn't handle testing 220 and gave up the ghost. I tested starting at the kiln plug... No power just a flicker and then nothing more. I backed up to the off lever... No power whatsoever not even a flicker. Went to the sub panel and NOTHING. I tested every other breaker in the panel and got a reading on each of them but got nothing not even a twitch on the kiln breaker. So will get this replaced and hope it fixes everything. Keep your fingers crossed that "baby" wakes up with the new breaker and isn't cranky with me for accusing her of being naughty. I didn't know breakers could go bad like this and not throw themselves into the off position. It was installed less than 3 years ago by an electrician. Is it because it's running the kiln that it failed so quickly? I have also thought it looked old from the day they put it in is it possible they installed an old used breaker to save a buck? Keep your fingers crossed I can get a replacement installed efficiently and that it fixes everything. T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted July 20, 2015 Report Share Posted July 20, 2015 If the controller had gone dead during the firing you would have had a PF (power failure) reading when it came back on. Breakers can definitely go bad. The other possibility is that the fuse holder on the kiln for the controller is having an issue. I see that all the time. Those little push in fuse holders are kinds junk. But because you heard something in the panel when it came back on, I would blame the breaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldlady Posted July 20, 2015 Report Share Posted July 20, 2015 we are all waiting to hear what happened..................................................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted July 20, 2015 Report Share Posted July 20, 2015 Breakers go bad especially after pulling high amps for years. When things go south a new breaker is always a good idea. There is a breaker tester but its spendy that tests the trip feature. A volt meter is a cheap and easy way to test outputs. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugaboo Posted July 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2015 Update: I got the breaker replaced and the kiln now turns on. I'll test it with a bisque load in a few days to make sure it fires through a whole cycle. I DID find out the electrician I originall hired cut corners and put in an old 30 amp breaker rather than the 50amp I ordered and paid for, it's clearly printed on my receipt 50AMP. The kiln manual says it needs a 40amp breaker so I added the % more I was told to allow for and went with a 50amp. Or at least I thought I had. The front of the breaker he put in was black plastic and the numbers could not be clearly read while in the panel. It wasn't until it was removed and taken outside that you could see faintly printed 30A. Want to talk about being freaked out? I have no idea of what could have happened with that size of a breaker, my husband says it just would have tripped and not come on if the load was too much. But I am paranoid about fire which is why I hired a professional to do the job in the first place. I am really upset that I didn't ask to examine the breaker before it was put in there, kind of feel like an idiot, but there has to be a bit of trust when you hire someone and the receipt stated 50amp so I trusted that they did what I paid for. The kiln panel says something like 26.8amp so am thinking he read the panel on the kiln and figured a 30amp would work, or maybe he forgot to bring the 50amp and didn't want to come back out and figured a 30 was just a good I got no idea of the thoughts recess behind the switch. I am betting that is why it failed within 3 years. On a happy note the glaze load that was in there fired beautifully, cone bent properly and everything. T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted July 20, 2015 Report Share Posted July 20, 2015 Pug smaller breakers protect wire and will only trip as hubby says. What is more important is the wire size-a 30 amp is for #10 wire -your 50 amp is for #6 wire-the question is what wire size feeds the kiln? #10 or # 6?????? A 50 amp breaker will not proect a #10 wire. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph Fireborn Posted July 20, 2015 Report Share Posted July 20, 2015 Did your new electric guy check the wiring the other bad electric guy put in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldlady Posted July 20, 2015 Report Share Posted July 20, 2015 this is something to report to the governing body who gives electricians a license. make a big stink about it! glad the pots came out OK and better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted July 20, 2015 Report Share Posted July 20, 2015 As Mark said, the wire must be sized to the breaker. You can't just put in a 50 amp breaker if you don't have wiring that can handle 50 amps. Otherwise the wire overheats and starts a fire. A 27 amp kiln can often on a 30 amp breaker just fine, unless you have higher than normal voltage which would increase the amperage draw. Sometimes new elements pull a little extra, too, and can trip the breaker. Code says that the kiln should be on a breaker that is 25% greater than the actual draw of the kiln. So a draw of 26.8 amps means you need a breaker that is 33.5 amps, which you then go to the next size up, which is 40 amps. Code also says that your breaker should not be more than 50% greater than the draw, which means 40.2 amps. So in this case the 40 meets both requirements. A 50 is too much. It would allow twice the normal amperage to go through your kiln before tripping, which means frying out all the kiln wiring. Put in a 40, with the correct size wiring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted July 20, 2015 Report Share Posted July 20, 2015 Neil nailed it-check your wire size and put in a 40-that 40 protects #8 wire as well as #6 wire but will not protect #10 wire. hope this is clear? Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugaboo Posted July 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2015 Yes everyone very clear, thank you for explaining that. I was calculating the breaker by the 40amp breaker the manual stated was needed and not by the plate on the side of the kiln. I will double check to make sure I am saying the right number of amps it pulls. When new breaker was installed was told everything is good now so am assuming that includes the wire. Didn't think to ask about the size of the wire. It does run through a metal conduit on the exterior of the wall so will monitor it just in case as I am not feeling too trusting of local electricians at the moment. I can turn off the power and open up the shut off box and see a little bit of the wire as it goes through the shut off does anyone know what codes are written on a #8 wire so I can double check for myself? I do know it's black with white writing and has multiple strands of copper color wire inside the casing. I am assuming it's not as simple as "this is a #8 wire to be used with a 40amp breaker" T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted July 21, 2015 Report Share Posted July 21, 2015 The wire with have some code #s which refers to the type of insulation it has-for example THHN #8 which if you google will tell you what that means. You need to see the #8 somewhere on the outer insulation to use a 40 amp breaker-or a #6 It will be one both wires about every 6 inches or a foot.You may get lucky and find the mark as it sounds like most is hidden. As he used a 30 amp breaker I'm thinking its #10 wire which is pretty small-a photo of this wire may help us. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugaboo Posted July 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2015 I opened the shut off box and found a bunch of gibberish ( to me) printed on the casing BUT also found in brackets (AWG8) So think it's a #8 T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugaboo Posted July 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2015 Looks like he knew what he was doing but compromised on the 30amp breaker. I am thinking he forgot to bring the larger one with him so just stuck in an old 30 he did have. I know he was supposed to put in a bigger one because what I had in there to begin with was a 30 and was told when they first came out that the box could handle up to a 50 with no problems. I had them check the panel before I bought a kiln to make sure it could handle a larger breaker, since there was no point in buying a kiln if I couldn't run it and installing a new panel wasn't an option. Plus the bill clearly states everything done and what it says and what was there didn't match up. When I got the kiln they came back out to install all of the connections. When he got here he took out my 30 and then reinstalled a different 30 which is just weird. After talking with you guys am glad a 50 didn't get put in but feel better with a 40 instead of a 30 to avoid accidental shut downs, and because that is what is listed in the manual to use. The wire appears to be a #8 since I googled what AWG8 means and found out that it means it's a number 8. Looks like I am up and running again, I am going to run a load of bisque through this weekend just to test that it's firing properly and not shutting down becasue of an issue with the kiln. This is probably not necessary but would rather test a bisque load than a glaze just in case there is an issue. Thanks again everyone you are all amazing people. T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted July 21, 2015 Report Share Posted July 21, 2015 As you learned AWG8 is # 8 wire which should have a 40 amp breaker-that way you have your reserve and it will last a lot longer as its not near it tripping point. The guy who put the 30 amp breaker in did not understand kiln loads on electrical system. He just went by the kiln label most likely . No harm really as you where just overprotected-its amazing you put 50 fires on that breaker with no issues. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Bridge Pottery Posted July 21, 2015 Report Share Posted July 21, 2015 Good to hear the kiln has been fixed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.