dhPotter Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 Judy_in_GA: Both of my kilns are on a 2 - 60 amp breakers. The first couple of times firing I noticed the house lights dimming when the kiln controller kicked it on and off. I called the power company and told them this. Next day they were out here putting a bigger transformer on the pole, at no cost. Went from a 10 to a 20, whatever that means. No more dimming. BTW, I live waaay out in the country also. So far out, DSL is not offered. I was on dial-up for 6 years. In order to have high speed internet I have a dedicated line, a T1, into a buddy's house in town,15 miles away, then get on DSL. It is convoluted and the AT&T boys had never heard of doing it this way - never under estimate an imaginative mind. No volunteer fire dept. I too never leave the house with anything on. John: Most of Mississippi is on Electric Power Associations. Not for Profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhPotter Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 Judy_in_GA; Here is the difference in glaze between a vent and no vent. Same glaze, same technique. Right pic is no vent; Left is vented. I have this backwards, Left pic is NOT vented; Right is Vented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judy_in_GA Posted July 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 John, Yes we're on an EMC (Electric Membership Cooperative) also not for profit. They are on my list to call about cost for additional meter if necessary. We are lucky enough to each have a DSL albeit a "slow" DSL (compared to when we lived in town) ...Don't tell my husband about a T1! But it makes no sense to rail against either one because we are limited by the connection speed of the respective companies we work for. Since our son graduated and moved out no one plays online video games and the connection for Netflix is just fine. Great example of the difference a vent makes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babs Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 Well, what can I say! In Aus, they still have for sale 1, 2 and 3 phase kilns... My kiln, which I am calling 2 phase, is directly wired, ie no pronged plug so where I turn it on it has 2 switches and occupies 2 "fuses" in my meter box! I take it this is the electrician's adaptation to get sufficient ampage to my kiln? Which means it is running as a single phase kiln as I do not have at this stage a 3phase supply from the pole? DIscussed about a year ago purchasing a new kiln, front v top loader and still procrastinating over that... If I now opt for a 2/3 phase kiln I would have to get a 2/3 phase supply to my property, not impossible, rural business here,, supplier would have to be in agreeance,and it would be expensive, the difference, from reading the above, would be that a single phase, same sized kiln would run more expensively, and less efficiently than a 3 phase?? Factoring in the cost of the above, in my remaining years I guess a single phase may come out in front. There would be a size of kiln at which this may be more significant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldlady Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 dh, did i read that right, the one on the right is not vented????? ( it looks better to me.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtRoads Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 Well, what can I say! In Aus, they still have for sale 1, 2 and 3 phase kilns... My kiln, which I am calling 2 phase, is directly wired, ie no pronged plug so where I turn it on it has 2 switches and occupies 2 "fuses" in my meter box! I take it this is the electrician's adaptation to get sufficient ampage to my kiln? Which means it is running as a single phase kiln as I do not have at this stage a 3phase supply from the pole? DIscussed about a year ago purchasing a new kiln, front v top loader and still procrastinating over that... If I now opt for a 2/3 phase kiln I would have to get a 2/3 phase supply to my property, not impossible, rural business here,, supplier would have to be in agreeance,and it would be expensive, the difference, from reading the above, would be that a single phase, same sized kiln would run more expensively, and less efficiently than a 3 phase?? Factoring in the cost of the above, in my remaining years I guess a single phase may come out in front. There would be a size of kiln at which this may be more significant? Everything would have to be completely redone for triple phase ... lights, plugs, etc. When I had my mall stores, all but one had triple phase power. The triple phase hardware and wiring, which are commercial rated, were a lot more expensive. And electricians that are qualified and experienced with 3 phase charge way more (about 4 times more in my area). Also when you buy a kiln, it's either single or triple phase. Maybe the kiln could be converted? I have L&L Quad Pro and from what I've seen most kilns are available in both 1 & 3 phase. You would have to do a lot of firing to make changing to 3 phase cost effective. If I had an option in the beginning it would be 3 phase, but I couldn't see changing over with my 3 kilns at this point ... it would mean a new meter and everything on it with triple phase wiring ...I know it would be expensive .. going to guess that in my situation it would cost 5K ... or more ... maybe up to 10K. Not including converting your kilns, if that's possible. If it means changing from residential to commercial power, commercial power rates in my area are higher. While the triple phase would save you some in electric bills, the change might negate the savings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babs Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 Yes have discussed with electricians in the past, it is pos. here to run a separate line from the pole only to a shed or in this case my kiln but with what all have put forward, I will be going for a single phase as yes, commercial supply is costed at a much higher $/kw used. Thanks for input everyone, and sorry for putting this post off at a tangent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curt Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 I have a friend (on a rural property as well, Babs) who has this two-phase setup and it does seems to be a way to be able to run bigger loads off of single-phase supply, although I am still a bit hazy on how this works. I have three-phase here at my residence in Oz. The house is still single phase as they just run all the lights, etc off of one of the three phases. The shed has a sub-box which is where I can plug in three-phase equipment. The box is 20 amp but since we are 240V here in Australia that is 4.8 kilowatts which is plenty enough for a decent sized kiln, particularly when you take into account the next paragraph. One advantage of three phase power regarding kilns is that you can have a kiln with multiple elements where each element is hooked up to a different phase. This allows flexibility regarding the elements, eg you can have a slightly larger element in the bottom (colder) part of the kiln if desired. One needs to pay careful attention to how much total load there is on any one phase, particularly where you are running, say, two electric kilns at once, but with a bit of planning about what phases are hooked up to which equipment three phase can provide serious power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babs Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 I have a friend (on a rural property as well, Babs) who has this two-phase setup and it does seems to be a way to be able to run bigger loads off of single-phase supply, although I am still a bit hazy on how this works. I have three-phase here at my residence in Oz. The house is still single phase as they just run all the lights, etc off of one of the three phases. The shed has a sub-box which is where I can plug in three-phase equipment. The box is 20 amp but since we are 240V here in Australia that is 4.8 kilowatts which is plenty enough for a decent sized kiln, particularly when you take into account the next paragraph. One advantage of three phase power regarding kilns is that you can have a kiln with multiple elements where each element is hooked up to a different phase. This allows flexibility regarding the elements, eg you can have a slightly larger element in the bottom (colder) part of the kiln if desired. One needs to pay careful attention to how much total load there is on any one phase, particularly where you are running, say, two electric kilns at once, but with a bit of planning about what phases are hooked up to which equipment three phase can provide serious power. Thanks Curt. My kiln has written on the plate Phase: 2x15amp. The kilns I am looking at, Tetlow brand, write that they can make the similar sized kiln which is listed as 3phase as a single phase kiln with special directions as how it is to be installed...think that it has to do with length of life of elements and temp required in kiln. Continuous firings to c10 would be tricky. I don't go there but don't like to set limits when purchasing such am item. Babs I run nothing big in the house, woodstove and heaters here but the odd welding and other stuff I can work around. I'll have a long conversation with the electrician before placing my order Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curt Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 Hi Babs, just found this on cooking glass.com.au. Sheds a bit more light, but still not clear from this how one turns a 16 amp three phase kiln into a two phase 24 amp one... Two phase kilns Many country areas in Australia are not supplied with the normal power of 230Volts single phase or 230/415Volts three phase. Instead, they have 230Volts single or two phase. It is referred to as SWER (single wire earth return) supply. Small single phase kilns which will work OK in city areas will work equally well in these areas. Larger kilns, which would normally be supplied as three phase, will not work, so must be specially made with the correct element arrangement to suit 230Volts two phase. Therefore a 16Amp three phase kiln would be supplied as a 24Amp two phase unit. The Riley FS-1(no longer available) had four 12Amp hairpin elements instead of three 16Amp ones. However power input and performance was unchanged. One stock standard kiln with two phase elements was the imported Evenheat coffin kiln, but this may not be currently available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babs Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 cheers mate! I'm cutting and pasting all of the comments to go armed with for my electrician visit. I can be bamboozled by electric. speak EVEN though I can sit alone and say to myself, well that is logical. Like 3 hot wires as Mark put it, would supply if totalling is the way to go 48amp to the unit. SO on 2 hot wires, you would need 2x24 = 48 amps..NO NO No do I hear some one saying.. Need to find out what is delivered to the box I guess. On the meter box it's definitely 1 phase, ampage I don't know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhPotter Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 OldLady, Thanks for pointing that out. The left pic is not vented, the right is vented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 Things are definitely different in Australia and Europe than in the US. A good kiln manufacturer should be able to get you whatever you need, though. 1, 2, or 3 phase power are all the same when it comes to firing costs. A certain number of watts are needed to heat up the kiln. Regardless of the amperage or number of wires being used, the watts will be the same, and watts (kilowatt hours) are what you pay for. So a 3 phase kiln will not cost you any less to fire than a single phase kiln. If you've got 3 phase, get a 3 phase kiln. If you've got single phase, get a single phase kiln. It's not worth the cost to try and change things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judy_in_GA Posted July 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 So my husband and I picked up the kiln on Saturday. There is one damaged brick in the lowest section (with corresponding dents on the banding) but the element does not appear to be damaged. There were 3 half shelves and 2 full shelves (one of which was flat on the kiln floor, no posts). She had plenty of stilts but no posts…she basically did paint your own pottery at home. Very expensive way to make Christmas gifts. They had it plugged in so we were able to turn it on and see that you could move through the controller settings and the elements started to warm. We immediately turned it off so we could break it down and move it. So I went back and found Doc’s post on the $40 DIY vent so that is in the works. Electrical is in the works. Anyone have recommendations on a post assortment (kiln will do vessels 23" tall and 21" wide)? There is kiln wash on all the shelves but it is flaking in places…patch or start over? Even though it is not a kiln sitter I’ve seen recommendations to use witness cones to verify after the fact that it is firing correctly. Self supporting cones for bisque cone and glaze cone? What else should I be thinking about just to get started? I’m sure there will be more questions once I fire it up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph Fireborn Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 Congratulations! Sounds like you got an insane deal. Get some 1'' post to put under your bottom shelve. The rest is up to you and what you make, you could always get an assortment. Post are pretty cheap. Self supporting cones are the way to go. It is important to figure out what your kiln is doing right away so you can adjust and test until its doing what you want. If the kiln wash is flaking off badly, then its time to grind it off and apply new coats. The good news is it last a really long time, so it is only hell every now and then. Find the manual for your kiln and read through it, the controller can do a lot of really awesome things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judy_in_GA Posted July 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 Yes I have the manual printed out but not read yet. I think I will grind the kiln wash off just so we start out with a good foundation and everything is fresh. And when we're talking grinding ... we've got everything from a Dremel to a bench grinder...which implement and what abrasive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph Fireborn Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 There are a lot of threads about grinding shelves. A quick search will give you numerous ideas. I think a good foundation is the way to go, would have to see pots ruined in your first firing because of flaky wash or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted July 16, 2015 Report Share Posted July 16, 2015 Angle grinder with a diamond cup wheel for grinding shelves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judy_in_GA Posted July 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2015 Thanks Neil ... angle grinder, got it ... diamond cup wheel ... boy is Lowe's proud of that thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph Fireborn Posted July 16, 2015 Report Share Posted July 16, 2015 blame the diamond hoarders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted July 16, 2015 Report Share Posted July 16, 2015 Grinding shelves is a good reason to buy a really cheap angle grinder from Harbor Freight. The dust gets into the motor and bearings and fries them out, so don't use your good $300 grinder. If you've got an air compressor, pneumatic angle grinders last a lot longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldlady Posted July 16, 2015 Report Share Posted July 16, 2015 HA! checking craigslist shows a kiln exactly like my old one for $325. not far away, either. i should be able to plug it into my controller on the wall and go to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judy_in_GA Posted July 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2015 I always forget about Harbor Freight ... we haven't had one for very long. Just checked and their prices are more reasonable on the diamond wheel. Yes on the compressor ... will check on getting pneumatic grinder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis Bednarek Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 When ever purchasing used it is very difficult to put a hard value on anything. From my understanding the new price for this set up is around $2,000 and with the used 50% rule that would mean a fair price would be $1,000. However there are other factors that play in. Does the buyer need this more than seller wants to get rid of it. That jacks the price up. Or does the seller want to get rid of it more than buyer needs it which lowers the price. Other factors are the demand for the item and supply of them in your area. . If your the only buyer you can bargain the price down, but if your the only seller with multi buyers you can make them bid the price up. Then finally there is the condition of the piece. is it ready to go? or do you have to invest in it to get it ready to go? How much will it cost to ship it to you and what is the guarantee against cracking bricks during shipping? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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