L&L Element Holder Screws/Nuts

[DirtRoads]

This is the 2nd time this has happened.    The nuts simply will not come off of 1 or 2 element holders in an element change.  The other 2 worked like clock work.   2 turns with my little wrench and then I can take off with fingers.

This one .... can't get them to unscrew.   One I broke.   And I don't have enough strength to really break a screw.   On the last element change,  on another kiln, this happened on 1 screw too.   I got someone to force it and it broke but low enough I could still use it.    I need to have a few sets of these things on hand I guess?  The next element change I will change the hex bolt or screw or whatever you call that thing.

Could it be the tool?   I have this small Kobalt wrench that works great.   Should I be using that other kind (shown in picture)?  

I really don't do much with tools and bolts and nuts.   I guess that thing is called a hex bolt.

Can I just go to hard ware store and take this and get a replacement (stainless steel I'm assuming?)  Or do I have to order from L&L?

1st pic is the broken hex bolt  on table.   I used one  from an old ring to see if it  would work .. same size but nut won't go on.     The 2nd  nut (one still in element holder) won't really screw easily.   I could probably force it but plan on replacing it.

2nd Pic:  Broken one compare to right length.    Also note, I use that little wrench.   Would using that other kind make a difference.   Never had a problem with that little wrench.  It is the perfect size

3rd Picture:  Note missing element holder in middle.    Thankful, it's only 2 screws to remove. 

WHY ARE THESE NUTS NOT SCREWING ON/OFF?

 

 

[Bill Kielb]

First I have to say compared to other element holders these are IMO the best at maintaining a good connection through the life of the element and keeping the heat from leaving the kiln.. I have noticed though that the screw and nut interface or threads tend to distort especially when tightened and then they are repeatedly heated. Usually easy to get some spare stainless steal screws, nuts and washers for replacement for a few dollars at the local hardware. You probably could use a rod coupling instead of the final nut to minimize the thread damage and make the thread area more robust, but replacing with a new stainless screw and nut is so infrequent and economical I think most folks would just install a new screw and nut. The little wrench is fine but the socket with handle will give you more leverage should you need to break it with distorted threads. If you reinstall any that are distorted, then good chance you will need to break it next time to remove. The deformed threads tend to act as locking threads next time.

[Dick White]

I agree with @Bill Kielb that these element holders are soooo much better than crimps. And yes, I too have snapped a few bolts in my time. One thing to consider when replacing them with standard stainless steel hardware (#10-24 x 1.75" bolts and related nuts and washers), the OEM bolts from L&L have hex heads that are captured in hex holes in the back of the terminal block. That makes it easy to tighten the nuts as the bolt does not turn with it. However, I have not been able to find the hex head variety from any of the usual suspects. All are round phillips screw heads. That means I have to set an initial nut (with a flat washer underneath it) flush against the terminal block with a screw driver holding it to lock the bolt from turning further. The round bolt head will tuck up into the hex hole just fine. Then I can put the terminal block properly in place against the side of the kiln and carry on from there.

[DirtRoads]

26 minutes ago, Dick White said:

And yes, I too have snapped a few bolts in my time.

TG I'm not the only person that's ever done this.

The cost of replacement  of new stainless steel screws isn't a problem.  I'll try to get some exact replica's from L&L first.  If not  available, I'll go to hardware store.  Yes, not like these are replaced often.  178 Firings on this particular set of elements.

 

[neilestrick]

It's not at all uncommon for the nuts to get stuck. You just have to twist the nut until the bolt breaks, then replace the bolt. The hex head bolts are really difficult to find anywhere other than from L&L, but you can just use a panhead 10-24 stainless steel machine screw. Put a lock washer and nut on the front and you're good to go. 

[oldlady]

bill, what is a rod coupling and how would sharon use it.  she has already said she is not good with tools.

[Bill Kielb]

@oldlady She may not know, but there is always the possibility she will ask or google so I figured no use keeping secrets. If she did replace the top nut with these it probably makes them much easier to take apart next time without having to break the bolt to get it done. Others may benefit as well, it’s a pretty common issue.

 

[DirtRoads]

5 hours ago, oldlady said:

bill, what is a rod coupling and how would sharon use it.  she has already said she is not good with tools.

Thanks for asking.

I'm hoping L&L will be able to  sell me some of those.   Amazing, I've never had this problem before.   I agree that larger one would be easier and looks safer as well.

 

[Bill Kielb]

9 minutes ago, DirtRoads said:

Thanks for asking.

I'm hoping L&L will be able to  sell me some of those.

More than likely an Amazon order or hardware store - Rod coupling or just plain coupling nuts 10/24 (thread) to match the bolt thread X 3/4” long. The picture above is from Amazon. Plated should be fine, stainless would be Cadillac. This would be the last nut installed or top nut that holds the washer down onto the element.

[neilestrick]

The bolts have two nuts on them- one to hold the element pigtails, one for the feeder wire. Either one can seize up, but most often it's the inner one. I doubt that you'd be able to fit two rod couplings on there, and it may even be a tight fit for one. Worth a try, though. As far as I know, L&L doesn't sell them. I've never seen one anywhere on their kilns and they don't show up in their parts list. Your local hardware store probably has them. If you do use one, it should be stainless steel.

[Mark C.]

Best stainless is at McMaster Carr-my guess is they have it all-mail order as they are a specialty supplier

by the way that small wrench is called an ignition wrench-they sell in sets usually

[Bill Kielb]

2 hours ago, Mark C. said:

by the way that small wrench is called an ignition wrench-they sell in sets usually

Distributors, points, coils? They don’t exist anymore. Funny, good catch. Well the problem is with the threads deforming so I guess you could just use brass nuts and keep some spare around for when the brass nut threads deform.

[Mark C.]

1 hour ago, Bill Kielb said:

Distributors, points, coils? They don’t exist anymore. Funny, good catch. Well the problem is with the threads deforming so I guess you could just use brass nuts and keep some spare around for when the brass nut threads deform.

I'm a big tool user and have lots of tools. Sometimes i can remember  even what they are called.

[DirtRoads]

Got 10 sets of these arriving Friday.   I'll use 2 in this kiln and 1 the next time I change elements in the other one that broke off.   Glad this is an easy solution.   Used  that ratchet (I think that what it  is) to force other nut off.      You get a complete set, all the insulators, nuts, tighteners for only $6 and I'll have extra on hand.   I have 3 other kilns so I'm not really out of commission.   Kilns go 24/7.

Idea for L&L and all kiln manufacturers:   Sell a set of recommended tools that will fit all things in the kiln.   AND  all extra parts.   I would pay for this and wouldn't care if it cost more than going around to stores.

I'm most thankful to all the replies and especially thankful to know that I'm not the only one that has had this (very small) problem.   I really thought it was something I was doing.

Education:     If I wasn't nearing the end of my pottery career, I would go to a kiln repair school.   I've learned most here and on  the telephone.   But, for new people starting out, it would be totally worth it.

 

[Jeff Longtin]

Fyi:  the little bolts, "Posts" as L&L calls them. do not need to be extremely tight against the ceramic plate.  Tight, but not extreme.  The ceramic plate simply holds the posts which the element tails attach to. 

Where you do want tightness is where the bolts hold the washers in place, where the washers come into contact with the element tails.

We have five Davinci's where I work. Not too long ago we had a repair person who didn't understand the concept, "Tight but not too tight." We ended up having 5 ceramic plates cracking.   It ends up being an expensive repair as we had to replace both elements for each plate.

 

[Pres]

I used a standard hex driver set to remove nuts from my old L&L, looks like a screw driver but has nut fitting instead of a blade. I really like to get the replacement bolts from Ace hardware as they carry decent stainless parts. The old blocks were much more problematic for working with, and I had lots of skinned knuckles till I got use to working with the setup. Gosh the new one is a breeze from looking at it. We'll see when I get to that point.

 

best,

Pres