Paragon A66B Questions

[Bill Kielb]

9 hours ago, Neosquid said:

I like the idea about getting rid of the cords related to the collar. Less mess and extra cords. 

Neil’s got a great point about the switch. If you can clear away some of the dust from the top of the switch and get a picture. My original thought is it was the Gottak, but looking closer, maybe the ark less. This will help a whole bunch with making a functional drawing that you can verify before we create a draft conversion drawing.

[Neosquid]

3 hours ago, Bill Kielb said:

Neil’s got a great point about the switch. If you can clear away some of the dust from the top of the switch and get a picture. My original thought is it was the Gottak, but looking closer, maybe the ark less. This will help a whole bunch with making a functional drawing that you can verify before we create a draft conversion drawing.

I will have to get a picture of that component later today and upload it. I got off the phone with Paragon and they mentioned it originally should have had a NEMA 14-30. So

Edited November 29, 2021 by Neosquid

[neilestrick]

2 hours ago, Neosquid said:

I will have to get a picture of that component later today and upload it. I got off the phone with Paragon and they mentioned it originally should have had a NEMA 14-30. So

Yep, that's a 4 wire plug. So assuming the switch hasn't been replace with something else, you'll want to replace the plug with the 14-30. It looks like in the pic you posted that there are 4 wires in the cord, so that's good. Cut them back to fresh wire and install the correct plug and it'll be good to go. Then we just have to address the wiring in the box to make sure it's still set up properly.

[Neosquid]

56 minutes ago, neilestrick said:

Yep, that's a 4 wire plug. So assuming the switch hasn't been replace with something else, you'll want to replace the plug with the 14-30. It looks like in the pic you posted that there are 4 wires in the cord, so that's good. Cut them back to fresh wire and install the correct plug and it'll be good to go. Then we just have to address the wiring in the box to make sure it's still set up properly.

On the subject of stripping back the wires and attaching a new plug, I have identified the power cord on the Paragon website but if all it needs is the plug, the NEMA 14-30 could be found anywhere. I am aware that the intense heat of the kiln means the cord has to withstand that. Does that mean the plug as well will have to be insulated for that high temperature as well i.e. buying the full power cord from Paragon? 

[neilestrick]

22 minutes ago, Neosquid said:

On the subject of stripping back the wires and attaching a new plug, I have identified the power cord on the Paragon website but if all it needs is the plug, the NEMA 14-30 could be found anywhere. I am aware that the intense heat of the kiln means the cord has to withstand that. Does that mean the plug as well will have to be insulated for that high temperature as well i.e. buying the full power cord from Paragon? 

No, you don't need a special plug, just get one from the hardware store. Power cords should be rated for 105C, but I work on a lot of kilns, especially older kilns, that have 90C cords, and they tend to hold up fine.

[Bill Kielb]

No, the 14-30 plug fits the bill, no special heating requirements. Can you check the temperature rating of the existing cable before we say reusing. It might not be appropriate these days as well.

Scratch that Neil already answered. If it’s below 90c then it’s likely time to decide. Just FYI most connections are designed at 75 c these days which usually governs the lowest acceptable. In other words lots of levels of safety intentionally put into things to make sure they don’t overheat.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Bill Kielb

[Neosquid]

Here are those additional pictures of the back of the switch:

I hope they have the information you are looking for. I see the PL and the COM on the top in the first picture.

[Bill Kielb]

Pretty sure that’s the Arcles. Will sketch something up later, see if you agree.

[neilestrick]

I agree, probably the ArkLes. I think there's a good chance it's already wired up correctly, just need to disconnect the upper switch and deal with the ground.

[Neosquid]

It sounds like this isn't such a big overhaul. I was concerned about how big of a project this would turn out to be.  That ground wire issue was unexpected. One last thing is to ensure the heating elements are still in working order. 

[Bill Kielb]

Arrrgh! Your drawing blew up on my computer. I was trying to sneak it in as a government project so I deserve what I get. Will publish late tonight.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Bill Kielb

[Neosquid]

4 hours ago, Bill Kielb said:

Arrrgh! Your drawing blew up on my computer. I was trying to sneak it in as a government project so I deserve what I get. Will publish late tonight.

Thanks for putting in that effort nonetheless

!

[Bill Kielb]

18 hours ago, Neosquid said:

Thanks for putting in that effort nonetheless

You are welcome! Others might get some use out of it in the end. - almost done, a few more hours of government time ought to finish it. 

[Bill Kielb]

@Neosquid

OK, wanted this draft done before I walked in to my next virtual meeting. See if this makes sense, is workable and matches your kiln. Some folks here may have suggestions. I would buy insulated terminals to crimp on, the clearances around that switch are pretty tight. I would also splice the cord within 8" of it coing into the kiln and run high temp wire to the sitter. High temp ceramic wire nuts are available on Amazon. The splice at the bottom can use conventional wire nuts In my experience. Keep it low and away from the kiln. Other splices, I would use High temp wire nuts still keeeping them forward or away from the shell as much as practical.

A66 Draft Drawing.pdf

Edited December 1, 2021 by Bill Kielb

[Mark C.]

Yes the ceramic wire nuts are availabl. I still have some older ones with albany glaze on them from an older knob and tube removal job in the 80s

The newer ones are white

[Neosquid]

2 hours ago, Bill Kielb said:

@Neosquid

OK, wanted this draft done before I walked in to my next virtual meeting. See if this makes sense, is workable and matches your kiln. Some folks here may have suggestions. I would buy insulated terminals to crimp on, the clearances around that switch are pretty tight. I would also splice the cord within 8" of it coing into the kiln and run high temp wire to the sitter. High temp ceramic wire nuts are available on Amazon. The splice at the bottom can use conventional wire nuts In my experience. Keep it low and away from the kiln. Other splices, I would use High temp wire nuts still keeeping them forward or away from the shell as much as practical.

A66 Draft Drawing.pdf 978.19 kB · 3 downloads

Thank you for your generous efforts here. This will serve me well. Why do you think the current ceramic nuts melted? Were they not suitable for the high temperature? I also was not aware that toward the bottom of the kiln there would be lower temperature. Noted. 

[Bill Kielb]

1 hour ago, Neosquid said:

Why do you think the current ceramic nuts melted?

They look phenolic not ceramic, and one looks like it was resting against the element connection. If they are zip tied  away from the kiln shell it’s way cooler. At the bottom where all the cool updraft comes in, really fairly cool. So the cord insulation will not be high temp and wire nuts down low don’t need to be, so neat splices to your high temp wire folded neatly, tie wrapped neatly, it can rest on the bottom of the control panel. I would bring in about 12” of cord, connect to the high temp scraps you have fold back about 6” and tie wrap neatly to set on the bottom of the control box, then run the high temp wire to the sitter spliced with ceramic high temp wire nuts. See below.

[Neosquid]

A quick update to all who were involved. Finally back from a trip that made up put this project on hold, we have come back to some more questions.

 

First, a thank you to all who have responded because it was a great help to us getting situated with this kiln. It has been helpful when figuring this stuff out. Thank you especially for the drafts, @Bill Kielb

A new power cable was bought from the Paragon website. The representative on the phone specified that the appropriate power cord is this one right here for this kiln. We bought it, but here was what actually arrived.

 

It was installed on the kiln, but the electrician working with us seems to think this cord is an issue. He took the liberty of uninstalling that power cord, saying he would fetch an appropriate one himself. I admit it, I am confused here since I wonder if him doing any of that is even necessary. Am i being mistrustful? 

[Bill Kielb]

Definitely the wrong cord and rated higher but can be used with the right receptacle. I guess what is his reasoning for replacing the cord. Cords can be rated higher than the load of the kiln. Actually safer and less voltage drop and  likely it’s 105c temperature. I get that it’s a 50 amp cord on a 30 amp kiln and a little harder to work with. As long as the kiln is on a proper breaker to protect the load.  Hopefully he does not come back with a 90c 30 amp cord. I guess I would have to ask what is his reason and see what he was replacing it with and really only accept a logical answer. Not sure there is one though.

[Neosquid]

24 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said:

Definitely the wrong cord and rated higher but can be used with the right receptacle. I guess what is his reasoning for replacing the cord. Cords can be rated higher than the load of the kiln. Actually safer and less voltage drop and  likely it’s 105c temperature. I get that it’s a 50 amp cord on a 30 amp kiln and a little harder to work with. As long as the kiln is on a proper breaker to protect the load.  Hopefully he does not come back with a 90c 30 amp cord. I guess I would have to ask what is his reason and see what he was replacing it with and really only accept a logical answer. Not sure there is one though.

I asked and he has not worked with a kiln before, so I am not sure where the decision to take the cord we installed so he can get one himself came from. It seems like an unnecessary step to me, unless there is something he knows and I don't. You are right, I will have to ask. I unfortunately was not the one at home when he stopped by today. 

[neilestrick]

The larger cord is not a problem. It's better, in fact, because it's over-built. The only issue may be if you need a larger hole in the control box for it, but your electrician can drill that out. A basic 30 amp appliance cord is not appropriate for a kiln, because those are generally rate for 90C, and kiln cords should be rated for 105C.

[Sadie]

So glad I found this site. I have what looks like the same kiln and plug end I was hoping to just be able to change out cord with a dryer cord  14-30. We haven't open up the panel to check the wiring inside but this kiln is in like new condition just old lol  A -66 B The kiln sitter seems to be in good shape as well as the elements .

[oldlady]

some days are harder than others.  i am sure neil is looking at this with pain in his eyes.  and bill is shaking his head.

[KatieD]

Hi I have been gifted a Paragon model  A66B Kiln and am looking for an operating Manuel.  Does anyone know where I can get one.  I’d like to know everything about the kiln before firing up. 
thanks

katie D 

[Hulk]

Hi KatieD,

Welcome to the Forum!
While waiting on more responses, could you take a close-up picture of the info plate, a picture of the kiln with the control box centered, and post them?

This might predate your unit (note the publication date, 1977) : SM and MED Paragon A and B series Instruction and Service Manual.pdf (arizona.edu)
There is a lot of detail, diagrams, images...

This Forum thread includes an entry from someone who works/worked with Paragon:
I guess I'm setting up a studio! - Studio Operations and Making Work - Ceramic Arts Daily Community

Be sure to confirm the electrical specs.
If I'm recalling correctly, a neutral line is required.

 

Edited December 25, 2022 by Hulk
is neutral required?