Paragon A66B Questions

[Neosquid]

Hello all, I am new to the community but I am hoping to have some questions I have answered.

 

I bought a Paragon A66B that has a LT-3K kiln sitter (missing the time knob on it). In addition, the plug is cracked where the three prongs are. It has the same configuration that a dryer has as far as that goes. I have to know, with all that being said and the pictures attached below, is this kiln in workable condition? I have yet to plug it in and try it out. Of course after I buy this one, another Paragon A66B pops up for sale across town for half the price but without the kiln sitter? 

Can the power cable be replaced on these?

 

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

[Bill Kielb]

Yes it can. You may also just buy a new cord end if the cord is fine but just needs the plug part replaced.

[Neosquid]

Thanks, but on the other hand. I have to wonder if just getting something like a kiln pyrometer and using it with the other Paragon A66B is just an easy alternative given that i now know there is that option. That Paragon A66B has everything in tact unlike the one pictured above, just without the kiln sitter.  So many choices, so little time.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Neosquid

[Bill Kielb]

You need something to turn the kiln off when it reaches temperature. A sitter and safety timer does that, a pyrometer only measures temperature not heatwork. An electronic control could be used which is likely a $600.00 -$ 800.00 minimum investment or at least install a new sitter. No control can be an issue, no one these days is going to sit and manually shut the kiln off in 8 - 12 hours when the cone in the site port bends. I am not sure the other kiln is the greatest deal either.

[neilestrick]

That kiln should be plugged into a 20 amp circuit.

Kiln Sitters are good. Otherwise you have to watch cones and it off manually, with no safety backup system.

[Neosquid]

Good information.  I think staying with the kiln pictured above would mean getting a replacement cord. The current one has part of the prongs exposed , which I am wondering how the last owner worked it since it seems unsafe.  Is it advisable to buy a kiln power cord that can handle 240V 20amp even if the plug is  a different NEMA plug? 

For instance, I found a Paragon Power Cord 20 Amp NEMA 6-20. The Paragon A66B I have has a plug with NEMA 10-30.

 

 

[Bill Kielb]

Hmmm, we just went through this, I believe this is a 4 wire kiln so that plug does not entirely make sense. What is stamped on the kiln tag. It should say voltage, amperage, wattage, etc……. Maybe post a quick picture of the equipment tag and cord / plug.

[neilestrick]

@Bill Kielb Here we go again! Yes, according to the wiring diagram for that kiln it should be a 4 wire setup. The only difference with this one is that it only has two elements, not 4 like the other one.  @Neosquid post a picture of the plug, as well as a picture of the switch on the control box. If you know how, open up the control box and take a picture of the back side of the switch, too. There's a chance the kiln is wired wrong and won't work, or at best is wired wrong and not totally up to modern safety codes. It would be a fairly simple fix, though.

[cadenrank]

2 hours ago, Bill Kielb said:

Hmmm, we just went through this

23 minutes ago, neilestrick said:

@Bill Kielb Here we go again!

I read this earlier and was thinking the same thing. 

[Neosquid]

I have two pictures below. We opened up the control box a day ago, so I will have to open it back up later and get some other pictures. I also need to get a close up and tear that duct tape off and show the condition of the plug with the exposed wires.

 

[cadenrank]

37 minutes ago, Neosquid said:

I also need to get a close up and tear that duct tape off and show the condition of the plug with the exposed wires.

 

Swapping out just the plug on this would be a pretty straight forward (and fairly inexpensive) project, assuming everything downstream of the plug and inside the kiln is in good shape too. 

I do have a feeling that your kiln probably has the same issue that @neilestrick and @Bill Kielb had figured out the other night with my kiln, but they will chime in with it soon, I'm sure. I'm basing this on the 120/240v rating on the manufacturer plate, the 4 prong receptacle on the front of your kiln, and the fact that the power cord has a 3 prong plug.

Edited November 29, 2021 by cadenrank

[Neosquid]

Here is what I have for a picture of the inside of the controller for what it is worth. I took this image the first time we took the controller off, so let me know if I need to get another photo.

 

[Bill Kielb]

Just a quick observation

Yes I would say this is wrong and that plug contained two hot legs L1 & L2 and a neutral but is missing a ground. While hard to be entirely sure from the picture, here are a few things I notice.

1. Ordinary wire nut, looks like it began to melt at one point. Install high temp or at least new (all locations) and relocate as far away from the shell as possible and as far towards the bottom of the cabinet, where it is always reasonably cool.

2. This really looks like lamp cord,, so whatever it leads to needs to use the appropriate wire with approved wiring practices. No lamp cord!

3. This ground screws is much rustier than the adjacent screw. The accelerated corrosion is indicative of small amounts of electric flow. Rust is actually a movement of electrons. In its early days bonding the neutral as a ground was acceptable in some appliances, eventually this was forbidden as it can create a shock hazard.

Anyway, we will need a picture of the low, med, high switch (back side) but just from what I can see, the wiring needs to be reviewed and the deficiencies repaired before operating this.

Its actually not uncommon to find some of this in old kilns so not hard to repair. Just from what we seem to know at this point, this kiln needs the internal wiring reviewed and updated, a four pole plug with a separate ground and appropriate cord. The existing cord likely is four wire so you may be able to use it by cutting back and getting all four wires, then the appropriate cord end, matching receptacle and of course branch wiring to include a neutral and ground.

Proper TLC likely puts this in good order. Prior to that, I suggest don’t plug it in till the deficiencies have been addressed.

To start, more pictures of the wiring, from a slight distance (contextual) will make this easier to understand. Super zoomed in pictures probably not as useful unless we are looking specifically at a connection.

Please take a picture of the equipment tag which will include model, voltage, wattage etc… it’s really hard to speculate without it.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Bill Kielb

[Bill Kielb]

Just to add, I see the tag above - missed it the first go around. 3600 W old 120/240 3 wire designation which is no longer allowed. Now 120/240, 4 wire.

The branch circuit
It will need its own circuit, a new 2 pole 20 amp breaker, a neutral, a designated ground and a suitable 4 prong plug wired with #12 copper or larger depending on distance from the panel.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Bill Kielb

[Neosquid]

Wonderful information. Here are more pictures form the interior. I do see the melting. Based on what we are seeing here, it is possible to configure this with a four pronged plug? I guess there is some work to do before this thing is even safe to run. Here are some more pictures, including the plug.

 

[Mark C.]

No lamp cord in those photos-but the wire nuts  need to be upgraded

My guess this goes 6 pages long

Edited November 29, 2021 by Mark C.

[Dick White]

The wiring diagram is here: https://paragonweb.com/wp-content/uploads/A66WD.pdf

The diagram clearly indicates a 4-wire power cord/plug with neutral and ground (and a few wire nuts are also specified). The last picture in the series just above, showing the open (and broken) 10-30 plug, I see the green ground wire in the power cable has been snipped off, which makes the whole thing unsafe with no ground.

[cadenrank]

18 minutes ago, Dick White said:

I see the green ground wire in the power cable has been snipped off, which makes the whole thing unsafe with no ground.

That being said though, it appears that the green ground wire from the cord does come to the case inside of the kiln (albeit, it looks like a poor connection). Which means that it is probably wired the way that the diagram shows, the 3 prong plug is just not suited for the 4 wire cable. I'd guess the previous owner had a 3 prong receptacle, and opted to match it, and by doing so, cut the ground wire in the cord, and put the 3 prong on to match. It likely worked, but of course, means the kiln isn't grounded. 

If the wiring to the kiln is correct (providing a proper neutral, and ground) then a new plug or 4 wire power cable would likely be the solution, assuming the inside is wired correctly. 

Edited November 29, 2021 by cadenrank

[Bill Kielb]

Give me some time to edit the pictures, Mark is correct what looked like lamp cord is not so……that is good, one less thing to fix. The power cord appears adequate as the ground is just trimmed back so it appears it can be reused.
 

My suggestions will include the removal of all the wiring to the receptacle at the top of the control box. IMO, it’s useless at this point unless you plan on buying a 40 year old extension ring, and it creates a bit of mess. Besides you will get some decent unused high temp wire to work with.

Hopefully I can detail some suggestions and others will either agree or may see it differently. Regardless, you will have a path to pursue or something to show your tech with respect to the suggestions.

[Neosquid]

Realistically, I will get ahold of a new power cord to replace the original cord. That is, if the interior appears to have everything still intact. That exposed copper wiring where the green wire is in this shouldn't look so unraveled, should it?

 

[Bill Kielb]

Not very neatly done actually. Only the green wire from the power cord will go there and there is an easy way to make this much neater and easy to do.

[Neosquid]

52 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said:

Not very neatly done actually. Only the green wire from the power cord will go there and there is an easy way to make this much neater and easy to do.

I like the idea about getting rid of the cords related to the collar. Less mess and extra cords. 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Neosquid

[neilestrick]

That switch is different than the one on the other kiln we were dealing with. Could be someone already swapped it out for a full 240v switch. Might be a good idea to send pics to Paragon to see what they say before moving forward with the 4 wire setup. Also, if you could measure the element resistance that would be helpful, and might give some other options for repair.

[Bill Kielb]

1 hour ago, neilestrick said:

That switch is different than the one on the other kiln we were dealing with

It does resemble the gottak  switch. here is a resource i drummed up from somewhere you may find useful. Would not hurt to confirm the lettering next to the top connections though.

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Bill Kielb

[neilestrick]

@Bill Kielb Great chart! Thanks for posting it!