liambesaw

Heh, my house is full of the things I've made going all the way back to the first grade.  My kids won't eat out of a bowl unless it's hand made, they're real snobs.  I leave the bottom half of the outside of my bowls unglazed but with heavy texture so they are easy to grip and feel really good in the hand.  I guess I'm a snob because now that I've been eating out of this style of bowl I notice how awkward it is to hold a Corelle bowl.

I think that what you get out of school is what you put into it. I know several people who came out of the same programs as me with little to show for it, and others who came out ready to take on the world. I found college and grad school to be a place of a million possibilities. It's where I learned to make pots, and where I learned a ton of technical knowledge that set me on the path toward a career in ceramics. In college and grad school I had far more clay and glaze materials available for testing than I could ever have in my private studio. I had kilns of every type available. I had the knowledge of dozens of other students who had come from other programs. There was no surrendering of free will, self-fulfillment, or creativity. In fact I would say there is far more creativity because a college program has far more resources and knowledge available, which allow you to work in directions you wouldn't be able to do on your own, or didn't even know existed. I had teachers that demanded and supported creativity and experimentation. If I didn't show up to the weekly critiques with something creative I was in trouble. In ceramics, and any art, lack of knowledge and technical skill are stifling. The more you know, the greater the possibilities. And all the non-art classes that I took? Those come in very handy too. Calculus, sociology, biology, writing, Spanish, music, economics, etc. They are all helpful to me as a business owner, husband, parent, and teacher. You can't live in an art bubble.
A college program also has a much faster learning curve, because there is a schedule that must be followed in order to get the grade. You either practice and learn the skill, or your grade suffers. An art center program doesn't have that kind of schedule, so the learning curve is much, much slower. Are you really 'wasting tons of cash and years of your life' if you get more skills in half the time? The whole purpose of an MFA program is to create a body of work that can then be produced and sold when you get out of school. I don't see how that is a waste of time or money.
It's not any cheaper to learn to make pots at an art center than at a college. Say you take a class at a local art center or studio and it costs $150 a month (which is a little low in many places), that's $1800 a year if you go all year. In that class, you're going to learn, at most, 1/2 of what you would in a decent college program (if even that). I know this because I teach community classes. When people only come into the studio once or twice a week,  it takes a lot longer to learn the skills, and the resources aren't there to provide a really comprehensive ceramics education. So if you do the math, you'd need to go 2 years, $3600, to get the equivalent education of one year of a college program. Add in the cost of clay, and in many studios also the cost of glazing and firing, and it's even more. And you probably don't get to load and fire the kilns, or mix glazes, or have formal critiques, or have the variety of kilns and raw materials available to you. Full time tuition at UW Whitewater for residents is $7,692. That's for 4 or more classes, so no more than $1923 a year per class.
Yes, there are some college art programs that are very expensive, but you don't have to go to those. I went to  state schools that were quite inexpensive at the time, and got a better education than my friends that went to the expensive schools. But I also worked really hard to make sure I got a good education. It wasn't just handed to me. I took advantage of all that was available to me and made sure I wasn't leaving anything out. I spent 40+ hours per week in the studio from day one, 70 hours a week in grad school. I helped our lab tech with all of his maintenance jobs. I learned how to fire every kiln. I built kilns. I ran thousands of glaze tests. Not all schools are the same, not all schools are good, and not all schools are a good fit for every person. You have to do your research and figure out what's best for you. I'm sorry if you've had a bad experience with formal education, but to say that all college is bad is inaccurate.
 
 

Done with this forum

Learning all about raku work these days. Decided that I'm just going to make things that I really enjoy making. Hopefully I can at least earn my keep at the local studio I am at!
Lots to learn about glazes, firing, fuming, not singing my hair or eyebrows, etc.  Plus I think I'd like to build more kilns - so much fun - my kind of experimenting.

Beautiful, is that blue flashing or something you did on purpose?
 
This week my workbench is going to be lidded jars.  Got all my mugs handled and slipped and loaded into the kiln, have enough room for maybe 8 lidded jars.  Threw 4 last night, will try to get another 10 or more tonight and hopefully get enough done this week to do two bisque loads this weekend.  Picked up 40 pounds of propane so I'm set on fuel.

Go ahead and send them my way when they're finished.  I'd post a picture of the mess, but I'm afraid it would cause some of the more organized folks here an aneurysm.

Go ahead and send them my way when they're finished.  I'd post a picture of the mess, but I'm afraid it would cause some of the more organized folks here an aneurysm.

Almost half of adults have a college degree, I don't consider that to be elite by any standard.  If money is a barrier as a young adult, there is always time later in life to pursue a degree.  I was\am poor and will probably continue to be so, but later in life I decided to look into college and decided it was worth it.  I had to use grants and scholarships to afford school, had two infants at home, worked full time and ran a side business at the same time.  It was a tough 5 years, but it was worth it.  If money is the barrier there are many ways around it, and if you need help navigating the system let me know and I can help you.

I wish my college let the students observe loading and firing the kiln, but it was fired over the weekend.  Students got to participate in kiln openings though, those are always fun

I was lucky enough to get into a special pilot school in Seattle when I was a wee lad.  It was a school that focused on the arts instead of academics and I got a very thorough exposure to every art form you could dream of.  We had a giant ceramics studio as part of the school and that's where I started my obsession.  Was able to stay in that school for 7 years, did everything from candle making to screen printing, wood carving, performance art, painting, etc etc.  
We moved away when I was in 8th grade and my family decided to go the home school route after I had a difficult time adjusting to a traditional school.  I ended up going to college through an early entry program and took ceramics courses every quarter for two years. Loved it, volunteered all the time, had a key to the studio and covered dang near every aspect.  I really wish I had continued in that direction but I dropped out of school once I ran out of free credits.  
Fast forward 20 years and I went back to school for my computer science bachelor's, graduated last year.  I will say I use the knowledge and experience I gained in elementary and community college a whole lot more than I use the science I learned for my bachelor's.  Maybe my unstructured schooling as a child was totally different than traditional art classes but I wouldn't trade that hands on learning for anything.  I am a dental laboratory technician now, making dentures, and using those ingrained skills every day.  
Just early this year I was able to afford the space, time and money to get a wheel and build a kiln.  Back at it and it was like riding a bike.  So the value of education on ceramics?  Well, I have to say it is invaluable in my life. 
As far as calculus and organic chemistry are concerned, they're there because there is some minimum standard of knowledge by which an institution must adhere in order to issue credible certifications.  There isn't a specific degree for every possible field, so while I may not ever use calculus as a web developer, someone else with my degree who designs computer components may indeed use it.  I didn't mind learning new things, even if I was never going to use them again in my life.  I guess I am just curious enough to be a sucker for learning haha.
I don't understand animus towards schooling.  We have the luxuries we have today by building on the progress of the people before us, most of who are dead.  To not take advantage of that in one specific area (such as ceramics or design) out of some kind of personal principle seems like such a strange stance. And just because you have a solid foundation on which to start, doesn't mean you have some rule book you must adhere to.  Why be ignorant by nature when you can be ignorant on purpose!

Times were very different when I was in college back in the 1970’s the whole getting sued thing wasn’t so out of control. I lived very near my local community college and the ceramics professor gave me a key to the studio so I could help fire the kilns, two big old alpines. 

I was lucky enough to get into a special pilot school in Seattle when I was a wee lad.  It was a school that focused on the arts instead of academics and I got a very thorough exposure to every art form you could dream of.  We had a giant ceramics studio as part of the school and that's where I started my obsession.  Was able to stay in that school for 7 years, did everything from candle making to screen printing, wood carving, performance art, painting, etc etc.  
We moved away when I was in 8th grade and my family decided to go the home school route after I had a difficult time adjusting to a traditional school.  I ended up going to college through an early entry program and took ceramics courses every quarter for two years. Loved it, volunteered all the time, had a key to the studio and covered dang near every aspect.  I really wish I had continued in that direction but I dropped out of school once I ran out of free credits.  
Fast forward 20 years and I went back to school for my computer science bachelor's, graduated last year.  I will say I use the knowledge and experience I gained in elementary and community college a whole lot more than I use the science I learned for my bachelor's.  Maybe my unstructured schooling as a child was totally different than traditional art classes but I wouldn't trade that hands on learning for anything.  I am a dental laboratory technician now, making dentures, and using those ingrained skills every day.  
Just early this year I was able to afford the space, time and money to get a wheel and build a kiln.  Back at it and it was like riding a bike.  So the value of education on ceramics?  Well, I have to say it is invaluable in my life. 
As far as calculus and organic chemistry are concerned, they're there because there is some minimum standard of knowledge by which an institution must adhere in order to issue credible certifications.  There isn't a specific degree for every possible field, so while I may not ever use calculus as a web developer, someone else with my degree who designs computer components may indeed use it.  I didn't mind learning new things, even if I was never going to use them again in my life.  I guess I am just curious enough to be a sucker for learning haha.
I don't understand animus towards schooling.  We have the luxuries we have today by building on the progress of the people before us, most of who are dead.  To not take advantage of that in one specific area (such as ceramics or design) out of some kind of personal principle seems like such a strange stance. And just because you have a solid foundation on which to start, doesn't mean you have some rule book you must adhere to.  Why be ignorant by nature when you can be ignorant on purpose!

I was lucky enough to get into a special pilot school in Seattle when I was a wee lad.  It was a school that focused on the arts instead of academics and I got a very thorough exposure to every art form you could dream of.  We had a giant ceramics studio as part of the school and that's where I started my obsession.  Was able to stay in that school for 7 years, did everything from candle making to screen printing, wood carving, performance art, painting, etc etc.  
We moved away when I was in 8th grade and my family decided to go the home school route after I had a difficult time adjusting to a traditional school.  I ended up going to college through an early entry program and took ceramics courses every quarter for two years. Loved it, volunteered all the time, had a key to the studio and covered dang near every aspect.  I really wish I had continued in that direction but I dropped out of school once I ran out of free credits.  
Fast forward 20 years and I went back to school for my computer science bachelor's, graduated last year.  I will say I use the knowledge and experience I gained in elementary and community college a whole lot more than I use the science I learned for my bachelor's.  Maybe my unstructured schooling as a child was totally different than traditional art classes but I wouldn't trade that hands on learning for anything.  I am a dental laboratory technician now, making dentures, and using those ingrained skills every day.  
Just early this year I was able to afford the space, time and money to get a wheel and build a kiln.  Back at it and it was like riding a bike.  So the value of education on ceramics?  Well, I have to say it is invaluable in my life. 
As far as calculus and organic chemistry are concerned, they're there because there is some minimum standard of knowledge by which an institution must adhere in order to issue credible certifications.  There isn't a specific degree for every possible field, so while I may not ever use calculus as a web developer, someone else with my degree who designs computer components may indeed use it.  I didn't mind learning new things, even if I was never going to use them again in my life.  I guess I am just curious enough to be a sucker for learning haha.
I don't understand animus towards schooling.  We have the luxuries we have today by building on the progress of the people before us, most of who are dead.  To not take advantage of that in one specific area (such as ceramics or design) out of some kind of personal principle seems like such a strange stance. And just because you have a solid foundation on which to start, doesn't mean you have some rule book you must adhere to.  Why be ignorant by nature when you can be ignorant on purpose!

There are many people who worry that learning common ways of doing things, or other people's ways of doing things, will keep them from discovering uncommon ways of doing things or a unique personal style. 
These are often the same people who believe that small children have better judgment and instincts than people who have been exposed to a range of other people's ideas.
I don't think there is any evidence that exposure to a range of ideas or techniques is stifling. More likely it is stimulating.
There are others who loathe formal education because they were either bored or humiliated by the particular education they received and generalize that to all formal education.
I have also encountered people who are convinced that formally educated people are less disposed to becoming life-long learners than people without formal education. I don't think there is any validity to this assumption.
The question of how much it is reasonable to go into debt or how much time it is reasonable to devote is entirely legitimate. There will also be people who have an exceptional alternative resource available to them that is uncommon, someone who is willing to devote all the time it takes to teach them privately. Most people will not have this option. 
I have taken two ceramics classes. One was an open studio sort of thing with lots of studio access but little instruction. The other involved formal instruction but no access other than during class time to practice space or equipment.
I learned much more from the second than from the first, but these experiences made me wish I had had an opportunity to take a class from a teacher over the course of a three or four month term in which I also had access to the studio to practice. At this point I am unlikely to be able to do that.
 
 
 

Well got handles on 6, life sure tries it's darnest to get in the way of me working out in the shed.  Had to pull my 4 month old husky out of the crawlspace yesterday, that was fun (not.)
Hopefully tonight I'll get to the rest of them.  Got most of the mugs trimmed and into the wet box though.

Load was in night before last, cut it back to go to bed as it was not reaching temp. . . heat color was around 1900F., Woke yesterday morning early, 4am. Thought it is too early it won't over fire as I had cut it back to 65%. Got up at 7 and checked to find all cones FLAT! Unloading today. First look says someone was looking over me. .. no crawling, no pinholing and the color is muted, but acceptable.  Should have paid more attention as I knew it was firing better after changing a bad element.
Grinding today, and glazing next load.
 
best,
Pres

Thanks Min, thanks Liambesaw!
Search string "woven wire 80 mesh stainless" generates sufficient hits for me ...seeing need for smaller sieves (I have a few 5 gallon bucket size) for test batches o'glaze, etc.

Try www.onedreamdesign.com, or google "one dream soap pump"

Oh dear---I apologize for writing "publically" (on impulse, when I was mad, of course) on the personal disability-related accomodations  issue I referenced in this thread. I should not have named the group--that is just as unfair as posting negatives about a named supplier when they aren't present to respond. 
I am ernestly requesting that anyone who has quoted from it (where the organization is named) would (please!) do me a personal courtesy and delete those as well.
This was just not the way or the place for me to grouse about a specific entity--I should have framed it in general, non-identifying, language. I would not want to spread negativity or do any harm to the group, which I like and support. I will deal with the issue-this just isn't where I should be discussing it.     (I really am just mortified...foot in mouth dis-ease!!)