Pyewackette

Certainly glaze is A way to treat the surface. Just not the only way.

@Pres - never said you did. Was responding mostly to this and similar comments: I find the clay body itself most interesting. Glaze just covers up the beauty of the clay itself. Don't get me wrong - I like a nice glaze, especially on utilitarian pieces like cups and bowls. But when I CAN get away without it to show the clay itself, I'm happiest.

My dad's first car was a model T. It might not have had a carburetor at all (I have no idea what those things involved other than having to crank the engine with a literal crank). One of my first cars had a manual choke. That was fun.

I don't see how they can be separated. Also - surface doesn't HAVE to mean glaze.

Wait - do cars still HAVE carburetors?

So I did find this in one of the manuals for the kiln controller: If sulfur erodes the thermocouple, I would imagine its not great for the elements either?

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of clay has iron in it, even our studio "white" stoneware has enough iron that it turns pink in bisque. Maybe porcelain is iron free. Now I feel like I have to find a youtube video of someone vacuuming their elements ...

@LeeU @Mark C. From the Adancer FAQ pages: There are similar statements for the Bailey Thermal-Lites. I don't know what "fast heating" is relative to "normal heating" in a kiln, but apparently ramping up more than 275 dF per hour is too fast. I don't know what the preset programs are for L&L kilns, I haven't found anywhere that calls that out yet. The programs must be described in a manual somewhere. Where I live there is little to no humidity most of the year. Shelves when not in use will be stored on, well, other shelves LOL! At any rate not on the floor. Ok to store them flat or should they go on edge? There's no way I will be lifting the kiln lid to peek or anything else along those lines. I have no problem whatsoever waiting for the kiln to cool off naturally. I will have a kiln vent and a kiln controller ala the version sold by L&L. I'm not exactly sure what "pulling a damper too fast cool a downdraft" entails, but it doesn't sound like something I'd be likely to do. It doesn't sound like something that is a normal part of waiting for your kiln to cool naturally. I'm good with doing what the manual says to do. The kiln I ordered is an L&L Quad Pro which probably uses the same programs as an EZ Fire. I've had my hands full recently landscaping my son's yard as well as my own, I need to sit down and find the operating manual and start reading it for this kiln. Thanks.

@fergusonjeff That's a relief. At $3k each it would have paid me to drive there and pick them up LOL! The size I need are $388 each at Bailey's or $470 each for the Advancers (not counting shipping). $2600ish for shipping per each did sound frighteningly high LOL! Does the requirement not to heat them up to fast mean I can't use the preset firing programs?

@Mark C. Thanks. I had not thought of differing costs of shipping and handling/packaging. The Baileys are almost $100 cheaper pre shelf - it had not occurred to me that the shipping etc might more than make up for the difference in absolute price. I'll check this coming week.

John Britt has the book on his website: The Quest for the Elusive Leaf Bowl and other Selected Articles I just realized the title is actually using "Illusive" but I'm pretty sure he meant Elusive, as in hard to track down rather than "illusory" or false. I also just learned that John Britt is from my neck of the woods (Ohio, Daytonish). I haven't lived there since the late 80s, but still.

I grew up in Tornado Alley. We had an old cistern in the basement with a hole cut in the side which we used as our tornado shelter. I wasn't the oldest but somehow I was the one responsible for taking care of all the rest. I used to keep that cistern stocked with fresh water and clean blankets and new batteries for the radio I kept in there every spring. Tornadoes still terrify me to this day. Hurricanes - not so much. You have plenty of time to get away from a hurricane. Tornadoes are totally unpredictable. Tornadoes are occurring with greater frequency, more power, and not limited to traditional tornado "seasons" or areas any more. Plus things like "derechos" and landspouts. Climate change is a bear. Stay safe as possible.

@LeeU I am 5'2" (still, apparently shrinkage is yet in my future, or else I've been wrong about my height all these years). I still got the 3 level kiln. I'm used to being short by now LOL! But no, I was not looking forward to heavy kiln shelves either. The weight in and of itself was perhaps not QUITE enough to sway me towards these, but the advantages of the relative imperviousness in the face of glazing accidents certainly tipped the balance. Now that I'm improving physically and I'm stronger, the weight alone is still not the deciding factor but - oddly enough, perhaps due to 20 years of being almost totally sessile - somehow I appreciate the lighter weight even more. Even though I am once again boggling the minds of young men in feed stores as I stride off with a 50 lb bag of something slung over my shoulder. But my lower back muscles are not what they once were, before I was brought low. ALL my muscles are pretty much noodles now. I was sadly confiding in my son the other day (I've been landscaping his yard for him, in tandem with landscaping my own yard as well) that here I am up and about and active as the day is long (literally) and I've gained weight. He looked at me incredulously and said, "Mom. You know this. It's MUSCLE coming back." It is really starting to sink in on me how big this kiln is going to be. I've got to get busy so I can fill it up! But first I need the shelves. I just don't know how many I should get. I'm thinking all full shelves - because I'm cheap and the 2 half shelves cost a lot more than one full shelf. But how many? And how much extra furniture?

@Mark C. @LeeU and @anybody else who has Advancers or the Thermal-Lites from Bailey - I have an Equad Pro eQ2827-3 on its way. Yup. I bought a ginormous kiln instead of the little one I originally planned on. I still hope to eventually get the little one (I have uses for it) but due to apparent electrical weirdness of this house and others nearby apparently due to builder cutting corners and outright not meeting code, I no longer trust the wiring in the walls (I was going to use an existing dryer plug for the little kiln) so I went with the big 'un, given I have to wire something in new to be sure its safe. At least until I have the existing wiring checked by a professional. Anyway. That kiln takes a shelf with a diameter of 25.5" if I am reading the diagrams correctly. But both the Thermal-Lites and the Advancers come in 26". Close enough? The Thermal-Lites are almost $100 per shelf cheaper. Is there a clear difference between the 2 brands? Mark C, I've seen a post from you about getting some of these Thermal Lites but I couldn't find a follow up post. If you were buying new shelves, would you still have so many Advancers or would you go with the Thermal-Lites now? Lee U., how are you liking your shelves so far? Anybody else using these or similar shelves? These are the only 2 I've found enough info on to be relatively certain they won't end up warping at the drop of a hat. How many shelves should I be buying? I also wonder now if I got enough kiln furniture LOL! I guess I will have to have a cutoff switch installed - I had planned on that anyway - so I can be sure power is cut off to the kiln when moving shelves in or out as I don't want to electrocute myself. Where I live is pretty dry so - I don't think I'll have problems with the shelves getting wet or damp due to humidity. They will be stored up off the floor in my garage (which is also where the kiln is going, sadly). I read the Advancer blurb about not firing at more than 275F per hour "up to 1000F". Does that mean I need custom firing schedules? I assume cooling would need to be similarly slow though they don't specifically say (that I can find). Bailey also makes a comment about not fast firing or "crash cooling" but they don't go into detail. How will this change usual firing schedules? How may this effectively limit the capabilities/usage of the kiln? Wow. I am really getting a kiln after all these years.

Well that wasn't intimidating. Nope. NOT AT ALL! JK. I feel you on the health-caused hiatus and losses. It's good to get back on your feet again, isn't it? I didn't think I ever would, it had been such a long decline. I told my DIL yesterday, it's good to have energy again and I intend to USE IT ALL UP every single day! But I don't think I will ever approach those levels of expertise. I'm having such a hard time imagining how you do all that fine detail. Its not the kind of thing the local pottery studio offers classes in LOL!

@Jose Keep in mind, if you are thinking plaster bats, that is going to reduce the amount of clay you can throw. I STRONGLY suggest you go with the Whisper, not the VL-Lite. I only bought my VL-Lite because at the time I didn't know the roughly-half rule of thumb and thought it really would handle 25 lbs. Plaster bats are heavy. You're going to reduce the amount of clay you can throw by probably about a third, or close to it. So you're looking at maybe 8 to 10 or at most 12 lbs tops, and probably not tops, what with the weight of the bat. You would be pushing that wheel to its utter limits ALL THE TIME. The upgrade to the Whisper is WELL worth it, really. A 2' square chamber ain't nuthin'. You can get pretty big pieces in there. I really do like my VL-Lite and respect it for what it can do but mostly what it can do is mugs and small to medium size bowls. Don't limit yourself to the capabilities of that wheel. If your situation changes, the Whisper will let you stretch more and its just a better drive (direct drive instead of belt drive). And if it doesn't - you've still got a better wheel that you don't have to baby. TL;DNR synopsis : Still recommending the Whisper for you; Recommending Pure & Simple bat molds and Hydrostone-not-Hydrocal-not-#1-potters-plaster for bats; recommending Hardiebacker-Tile-Backer-Board-not-Siding-not-Durock for ware boards. As for plaster bats, I'm a fan. Of Hydrostone. It is harder than the #1 potter's plaster for one thing. It is less prone to chip or flake or any of the other bad things plaster pottery stuff can do over time. It's lighter weight. Stronger AND lighter weight, always a good combination in my opinion, LOL! I kind of wish that for myself in fact. Also just to be sure - that is HydroSTONE not HydroCAL. The Hydrocal is a lot softer and not suitable for these purposes. I'm pretty sure its not even as hard as #1 potter's plaster. So STONE not CAL. I had some Hydrobats years ago and I loved them. Stuff pops off lickety split. I'm afraid they've been lost in one of my many moves since then - I haven't come across them again yet (still unpacking from my last move which occurred under emergency circumstances). But you can buy molds from Pure & Simple and make your own, which is my plan when I can make a clay buying trip (clay and Hydrostone buying trip I guess). I really like that keying system. Fumbling around trying to find the bat pins - really annoying. I like hardiebacker for ware boards because they are thinner, lighter weight, and schleppable, as opposed to any sort of plaster. The one thing they don't do as well if you treat them just like plaster is drying your slops - they're too thin. A half-inch (really .42") piece of hardiebacker board doesn't have near the mass of a 3" thick slab of plaster, so I used to dry my slops in strips, otherwise it wouldn't dewater in the middle as fast as the edges. Recently someone on the list (maybe @Callie Beller Diesel or @Min ?) described slapping their slops onto cloth over wire shelves by the handful - which is probably how I'll treat stuff from now on when I have slops to dewater on Hardiebacker. I don't think I want to give the stuff up in favor of a much heavier plaster slab for that purpose, and I am pretty sure layering it won't have the same effect (to get it thicker) as something that's 3" thick and of a piece. But dewatering in strips worked pretty well so I bet dewatering by the handful ought to work even better. That is the Hardiebacker board for putting under tile, not the siding, and not any other tile backer like Durock or something. They are just cement with some fiber in them and they're crumbly and fragile. The Hardiebacker is a pain to cut - basically you either score and snap, which I found difficult, or use something like an angle grinder with a masonry blade and wear GOOD DUST PROTECTION, but my preferred method (as soon as I an find my good DeWalt drill that's powerful enough to drive it) are these shears (PacTool Snapper Shears for cutting fiber cement) specifically for cutting it. No dust that way and more even edges than any other method I've used. Ware boards, unlike a dewatering slab, don't need to be thick. You could probably get by with the smaller .25" (really .25") hardiebacker but the price difference isn't enough for me to have bothered, I just use the half inch (really 0.42") for everything. I've been using it at the studio where they lost nearly all their ware boards in the changing of the guard. Prior to that I was having to dry stuff on PLASTIC (not plaster like I wrote first) bats and that was a big fat fail. Then the clay has changed and its a lot wetter, not so much short anymore. I've had better luck drying on my hardiebacker ware boards but still some weirdness which I have determined is due to some people coming in and leaving the door open. The drying racks are right next to the door and the wind (we get a lot of that here) was just sucking the moisture right out of the clay right through the plastic bags it seemed. But we're in to cooling season now (it was 95F yesterday) so hopefully that has stopped. But I'm pretty sure the last bowl I put in the kiln has, or will, come out with a crack in the bottom because it was subjected to the Great Outdoors that way. At any rate I've been using hardiebacker for ware boards pretty frequently (even if we don't include that huge gap between now and the last time I could work regularly) and I love them. I couldn't say whether stuff dries more evenly on hardiebacker or hydrostone but the hardiebacker takes up less space and weighs less. But I will make wet and dry boxes with the Hydrostone when I get things whipped in to shape around here and post clay-and-Hydrostone-buying trip.

Skutt is what used to be Thomas Stuart, right? Those are the ones I lust after. But $2000 - $2500 is a bit much for me. If I outgrow the studio Whispers, maybe then I could justify going that high. But until then I'll just throw small stuff at home on my VL-Lite and bigger stuff at the studio on a Whisper. Btw Skutt/Stuart does make a Prodigy model which is NOT REVERSIBLE which makes that absolutely out in my book just for that reason alone. I throw backwards. All attempts to rejoin the herd on this issue have been utter failures. I just throw backwards. Besides which I can't see spending almost $1400 on a wheel that lacks a simple reversal switch anyway. Plus they state the "throwing" limit is 75 lbs. They do say throwing instead of centering but I'm not sure you can really throw 75 lbs on that wheel, the motor's not that big (1/4? 1/3 HP?). But that model aside, I do lust after one or another of the wheels formerly known as Thomas Stuart. I like the SSX drive. I like the EW Cuphead system (HYDROBATS FOREVER!). I like the big splash pans and the removable wheel head (I think you can do that on a Soldner as well, one of the better Soldners would be a good wheel too, I'm pretty sure it's Tim See who has one and loves it to death) But if I were going to buy a new wheel, now, today, it would be a Shimpo Whisper. Honestly, at my age, recent health improvements notwithstanding, I doubt I'm likely to outgrow that wheel or even push its upper limits. I guess only time will tell. EDIT: Actually, now I may be lusting after a Soldner. Smoooooth sounds good too. And you can still make custom hydrobats with that plaster bat making system, the name of which of course escapes me right at the moment. And Tim See's Soldner video seems to demonstrate quietness, which is a big plus for me ... plus no proprietary parts ... maybe I would get a Soldner S100 if I were buying today ... SO FICKLE, me!

I've thrown 10 to 12 lbs on the VL-Lite without slowing it down. That is close to its limit though. Its a good wheel as long as you are good with its lower capacity - and lots of people will never throw more than 10 lbs of clay at once. As for "stopping" it, what you CAN do and what is likely to happen in normal use are not related. Frankly I've never TRIED to stop it, but it hasn't stopped or bogged down under normal use for me in the past. I actually did work on it for several months (I think I once hyperbollically said "only used it once" which was a gross understatement from before I started getting treatment for adrenal insufficiency and came out of the fog bank). However the OP from the sound of it would be disappointed with that wheel fairly soon so - not recommended for someone who is asking if he can throw 20 to 40 lbs of clay. In the under $1500 price range none of the wheels from Soldner or Bailey have more than 1/4 HP motors. I don't know if they're belt, direct, or cone drive. The Soldner 50 only has a 1/6 HP motor. In the under $1500 price range the Shimpo Whisper is the only wheel rated for more than 50 lbs. No wheel will operate at the rated "centering" capacity. As a good guess for the actual operating capacity of any wheel, take the centering capacity and halve it. So all the under $1500 wheels currently listed at Baileys will top out around 25 lbs, the Shimpo Whisper at around 50 lbs (its the only one rated at 100 lbs "centering" capacity instead of 50 lbs for all the others). I doubt the ability of the Soldner 50 to actually handle 25 lbs with that 1/6HP motor it has. The studio where I work replaced ALL their Brents with all Shimpo Whispers. There are artists who throw quite large pots on those wheels. In discussion with the best of their teachers - and he is very very good - he was more than satisfied with the Shimpo Whispers, one (but not the only) consideration being that they are, in fact, whisper quiet and make it way easier to actually teach in a room with 15 wheels running at once. I asked him about the "stoppage" issue and he showed me that yes, he COULD "stop" the wheel, but it was by doing it in a way that you would never be using when throwing normally. No, it won't handle 100 lbs throwing, yes, it will handle around half of that - but there are very few people throwing that much clay at once. You may get a little more or less than that depending on the consistency of the clay body. Stiff clay, a bit less (I shudder to imagine trying to throw a 50 lb lump of stiff clay), softer clay, you may eke out a bit more. I should ask him again next I see him to get a bit more detailed discussion. It's been almost a year since I talked to him about it last. @Jose - I like the VL-Lite for what it is and what it is is a solid but LIGHTWEIGHT wheel for throwing SMALL amounts of clay. It will handle 10 lbs. It may handle 12 to 15 lbs, depending on the clay. IT WILL ABSOULUTELY NOT handle 20 lbs. Sorry! It just doesn't weigh enough in and of itself for one thing, even if you could get the proper sort of power out of the motor and drive.

@Callie Beller Diesel I'm going to have to try that with sheets of hardiebacker. Also the idea of clumps instead of long strips which is what I did in the past with my slop to dry it out. It sure looks like I'm going to be processing more clay from dry or reclaim than I thought. Once I've got my kiln stuff underway I need to get the pugger ordered too. Still waffling between the VPM-9SS and the VPM-20SS.

@Callie Beller Diesel I'm afraid I have the same mindsight - its not enough for me to know something works. I want to know WHY it works that way, and why it doesn't work when it fails. Apparently that's not the norm. But I feel like without the background of the whys and wherefores, it's just stumbling around in a dark room with a blindfold on and your ears plugged. I seriously do need to get a notebook and start taking notes like I'm in class. I have so many things bookmarked that I can't easily find something I already read, nor adequately associate related information. Just right this second I think I'll just take a nap. I have a long drive there and back again tomorrow, nap again Sunday, and start fresh Monday. Plans! I love 'em!

I DO have a mold sensitivity but its never been set off by aged smelly probably moldy clay or clay water. That said your mold sensitivity may be entirely different. I will add to the issue of the musty studio space - that shouldn't be a thing. I've worked in several more or less "public" studio spaces over the years, at least 2 or 3 of which were in very humid areas, and none of them smelled. Maybe look for a different space?

I just did this myself a few days ago - forgot and put some still moist clay to slake in a bucket. What I SHOULD have done was let it dry out completely, THEN slake it. Or in your case I would suggest cutting it into thinnish slabs, letting it dry, breaking it up a bit if necessary and then putting it in with your other dry clay (trimmings I guess)? Dry clay scraps slake a lot faster and more thoroughly than wet. I knew this but forgot anyway LOL! I don't know about the algae, I'll let others comment on that. Potters typically don't care much about moldy smelling clay but algae? Not sure. I'm not sure why you have 3 things going with "greenware" which I assume means pieces you've let dry but don't intend to fire; trimmings which I think must be the scrap clay when you trim a piece; and then slops which I think you are calling "waste". IF that is the case it is fine to let all three mingle, as it were. But in a dry state, and slake only when you are ready to reuse. Then you slake it, put it to dewater on a 3" thick slab made of (NOT PLASTER OF PARIS BUT) #1 Potter's Plaster, hydrostone, or hydrocal - hydrostone is my favorite - or a sheet of 1/2" (really .42") hardiebacker. NOT DUROCK OR ANY OTHER BRAND OF TILE BACKER BOARD. It comes in 3x5 sheets, you would need to score and snap it to about 2x3 or whatever size you feel is appropriate for a dewatering "board". You could try layering 2 pieces that size and see how it works - the draw back of hardie backer over plaster for this purpose is it is so much thinner than plaster, but that is also its advantage. You can't schlep a 3" thick slab of plaster around very well, but you can just lean the hardiebacker up in a corner or behind something when not in use, or carry it off somewhere for storage. But because it is so much thinner you will need to lay the wet clay out on it in strips to dry. Otherwise if you put down one mass of clay it won't dry in the middle as fast as the edges. I've used it this way but I just had the one piece - when I set up my studio I'll try double or triple layers and see if that works better to dewater. It works great as ware boards or drying boards. I think if it were thicker it would work better (as it is it works way better than plaster of equal thickness) if it were thicker, but I don't know if it would get good enough contact between pieces to help when dewatering. Two .42" thick pieces is not the same as one .84" thick piece, if you get my drift. Consider renting a small storage space until you can get a studio. Some of them have electrical outlets and some are even "climate controlled". Even if not suitable to work in (and I know people who have used them as studio space for a variety of activities) you could at least free up some room on the boat. You would most likely have to schlep water there if you tried to work in there, guerilla style.

Wow! So much to take in, LOL! I have to get a notebook and start taking notes. Hope I haven't lost my math chops. Diffy-q was a looooong time ago ... Chemistry, even longer LOL!

@Min 44 lbs, ok, I just couldn't find anywhere on the site where it said how much was actually in a box LOL! So that would make the Zero3 or Zero4 (whichever version he's favoring now) porcelain about $2.70 USD per lb retail. It might be a little bit cheaper if you make it yourself but probably not by a lot since you wouldn't be buying in industrial quantities. I hadn't thought of the additional expense engendered by all that other stuff in the porcelain. I could quite easily see the additional expense of the frit added to red earthenware to make that red earthstoneware (see what I did there? Wordsmith, me!) - in particular, unlike most red earthenware bodies that I know of, that body doesn't lose its red coloring as firing temp increases. Lots of red earthenwares that I've seen are lovely after bisque and just sort of brown after firing to maturity. Plainsman seems to be reformulating their clays to eliminate talc (gee, I wonder why!) and it seems like as they do that, the reformulated clay bodies mature earlier and improve in overall density. Is it safe to take it as a sort of rule of thumb that talc in a clay body lowers its potential max firing temp, effectively weakening the final fired product? I don't know if they have that frit at the studio, but given supply issues atm, they may or may not sell me some. I'm pretty sure in normal times it wouldn't be an issue but these are not normal times ... I'll ask though. But first I have to whip my clay booty into throwable shape and do some test firings. I may not be able to actually fire them until my little kiln gets here - I mean at other than the studio-normal bisque of cone 06. While they haven't eliminated the white earthenware, nobody is currently working with it either (and I actually don't know what cone they use to fire it to maturity). Of late firings have been quite delayed. I had pieces on the glaze shelves that didn't get fired for months (so did others) and bisque firings are lagging as well. Not sure what's going on but I'm guessing there was some, shall we say, CROWDING of the schedule going on due to two recent studio-related events that involved ceramics sales. I'm guessing some people's production runs were prioritized over classes and the rest of us. Just as a guess. Possibly if that run on kiln space is over now I can get some space in the smaller kiln (which is not tiny, about 2 to 3 cft I think). That'll make test firing easier. For protecting the kiln shelves, would bisqued stoneware trays be sufficient? Or should they be fired to maturity, given bisque at this studio is cone 06 and I'll be going above that while testing? To make sure the trays have shrunk all their gonna shrink and don't develop cracks or other flaws when fired at higher than bisque temperatures.

So @Min sent me down a clay-lined rabbit hole with this post: Thanks a lot! NO REALLY! I loves me a good rabbit hole. Turns out that stuff is FREAKIN' EXPENSIVE (but still interesting). The guy who is working on it says they would have to sell the porcelain version for "$150 a box". As far as I can tell, a box is 25 lbs (unless its something else close-ish to that in kg, he's Canadian). And the $150 is Canadian Money or about $118 in American Dollars. Still a LOT. The red earthenware version uses 1/4th the amount of frit so I assume its not nearly as expensive but probably still not exactly affordable. But it turns out, unbeknownst to me who has always been told "earthenware MELTS at higher than cone 04" - you can "overfire" MANY earthenware clay bodies to improve the absorption and increase strength/density. They will not (necessarily) melt all over your shelves. Or even bloat. Some even reach stoneware strength with near zero absorption by cone 2, sometimes even less. https://insight-live.com/insight/share.php?z=No2m98AEhJ On that page he gives a recipe for a terracotta clay body that he says reaches stoneware strength at cone 02. He formulates this as a casting slip but says I assume by "plastic version" he means something throwable? He says it fires to porcelain strength by cone 4. I love earthenware but have always been told it is impractical for utilitarian ware. Since this clay body is not available for purchase through his company (Plainsman Clay in Canada) I assume there is something impractical about it, like difficulty finding or formulating glazes that fit the body maybe. For many of the things I want to make glazing is not necessary. In fact, if a glaze crazes it might even be preferable as a decorative feature. I'm going to try to get the recipe for the clay booty I recently scooped up from the studio so I can try to figure some things out. Where do you learn this stuff??? WHY DOESN'T EVERYBODY WANT TO KNOW THIS STUFF??? I haven't had this much fun in decades ...