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Everyone, the purpose of this Forum is to provide a free, open (and hopefully positive!) platform to the ceramic arts community to share ideas and experience. When threads or individual posts deviate from that objective, they no longer serve the community overall. The tone and some of the issues raised in this thread are a bit concerning to us, and we (CAN admin) are reviewing this internally and will communicate back to the Forum community. In the meantime, unless you have a specific thought you’d like to share related to the thread topic of Lepidolite, then we’d request that you refrain from posting to this thread.

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33 minutes ago, CAN Forum Admin said:

Everyone, the purpose of this Forum is to provide a free, open (and hopefully positive!) platform to the ceramic arts community to share ideas and experience. When threads or individual posts deviate from that objective, they no longer serve the community overall. The tone and some of the issues raised in this thread are a bit concerning to us, and we (CAN admin) are reviewing this internally and will communicate back to the Forum community. In the meantime, unless you have a specific thought you’d like to share related to the thread topic of Lepidolite, then we’d request that you refrain from posting to this thread.

 

Might I suggest separating the chaff from the wheat.

That is either delete all the off topic posts or separate then move them to a separate thread. Either way it won't muddy the topic and will show a more friendly atmosphere on this forum.

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I echo Pres' sadness at what has been lost here: Respect . This is what has been so different about this forum,

I would not have entered this discussion even though I have a tub of lepidolite in my shed, another old lady here, gotta watch them, but for the glaring disrespect for a member and very giving educator..no public remorse shown by those perpetrators,what a pity, what a pity!

Funny, for me, mere deletions , a bit like rewriting history, whitewashing the outsides of an otherwise dirty house.

what a pity.

s'nuff

Edited by Babs
self satisfaction is a worrying trait
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Re Lepidolite, begged, borrowed, hoarded or however someone might come by it knowing the possible risks of materials in this category and educating oneself prior to use would be prudent. Same goes for any material that off-gasses fluorine such as Cryolite and Fluorspar, both of which are available at my local pottery supply.

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Pres: good article on safety over-all. Perhaps pinned to a safety link. It has the exact info on lepidolite that I have been reading elsewhere. The inhalation of lepidolite dust, or absorption into the skin (open wound I would assume.) are the primary hazards with this material. Apparently it has been off the US market so long that many of the older MSDS sheets have fallen off the map.

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On 11/28/2017 at 4:20 PM, Rae Reich said:

How much moisture is available to the atmosphere of a kiln at above 1000C?

When I read the MSDS and tried to picture moisture above 1000c all i could imagine involved volcanoes or volcanic activity. Thanks to Tyler I was reminded of the products of combustion. When methane burns, natural gas is 90% methane apparently, the result is 1 molecule of carbon dioxide and 2 molecules of water and heat. This works out to be aproximately 66% water. I found this surprising *though not entirely unexpected. If my www skills and math are adequate over half of the emissions from a stack is water.

As much as I like the results from fuorspar I will look elsewhere.

cheers

Edited by C.Banks
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12 hours ago, Pres said:

Some of you may find the link here of interest, as it does cover certain problems with lepidolite, and also speaks well on all hazards to the potter in the studio. It is in part from Radcliffe in Boston.

 

http://www1.umassd.edu/cvpa/safety/ceramics.html

 

best,

Pres

Pres, you’ve provided an excellent object lesson here.  This is an example of low grade safety information.  1). It does not provide information as to how to evaluate risk.  The section on lepidolite does not say how it is highly toxic via respiration, nor does it really explain how that risk should be mitigated in ways different from other materials.

2) It was clearly written by someone outside the field of health and safety.  In the dust control section, it says use a hepa filter mask.  Hepa stands for high efficiency particulate—that would be great, except there’s no such thing—at least, no single such thing.  There are P-100 filters, N-95, etc. but I can’t find hepa as a meaningful term when I google “hepa filter mask.”. In fact, the first result I get is for a half face respirator for organic chemicals.

Glazenerd provides a similar object lesson with his MSD sheet.  It’s missing many key points of data which could be important to health and safety.  The temp of decomposition and thermal stability being the important ones—since we know that the decomposition of lepidolite is a key feature of its function as a flux. 

Here is a detailed links into the exposure levels of fluorine gas:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK220011/

And hydrogen fluoride:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK207733/#!po=0.287356

I would like to take note of Tony Hansen’s comments on fluorine and what it does to windows:

“Good kiln ventilation is essential. Over a period of time, fluorine gas will even etch windows in the kiln area until they are opaque like frosted glass. This is ample evidence of its presence.”

Link:

https://digitalfire.com/4sight/hazards/ceramic_hazard_fluorine_gas_108.html

I’m going to recommend, if you want to play with the dangerous stuff, an up to date copy of something like Sax’s Dangerous Properties of Industrial Materials (a three vol. work) be on your bookshelf.

Also, a word about lepidolite and its availability.  It’s generally unavailable as an ore because its mined in countries the US and Canada tend to avoid doing business with.  I’ll let you do the research into why that may be and form your own ethical/political considerations about the material’s use.  This is not the place for world politics.

Edited by Tyler Miller
accuracy and clarity

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It was always my understanding that MSDS fall under the same rules as the safety labeling of the packages of materials. That is, they only apply to the form in which they are sold, in this case a dry powder, which the MSDS clearly states should not be inhaled. Since they are not selling fluorine gas, they are under no obligation to list all the hazards of fluorine gas. It's just like moist clay- certified non-toxic, but only in it's moist form. As soon as it dries, the label no longer applies. So as soon as you heat the lepidolite enough to break down and release the gas, it's no longer the product they sold you, and it's no longer the responsibility of the seller to warn you about it. I'm not saying this is the morally correct way of doing it, and I would love to see a lot more information on MSDS, but that's how it currently stands. You just have to be diligent in learning about the materials you use.

Pres, Rae Reich, Babs and 1 other like this

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You're right, @Tyler Miller This is from the US Dept of Labor site:

Section 10: Stability and Reactivity

This section describes the reactivity hazards of the chemical and the chemical stability information. This section is broken into three parts: reactivity, chemical stability, and other. The required information consists of:

Reactivity

  • Description of the specific test data for the chemical(s). This data can be for a class or family of the chemical if such data adequately represent the anticipated hazard of the chemical(s), where available.

Chemical stability

  • Indication of whether the chemical is stable or unstable under normal ambient temperature and conditions while in storage and being handled.
  • Description of any stabilizers that may be needed to maintain chemical stability.
  • Indication of any safety issues that may arise should the product change in physical appearance.

Other

  • Indication of the possibility of hazardous reactions, including a statement whether the chemical will react or polymerize, which could release excess pressure or heat, or create other hazardous conditions. Also, a description of the conditions under which hazardous reactions may occur.
  • List of all conditions that should be avoided (e.g., static discharge, shock, vibrations, or environmental conditions that may lead to hazardous conditions).
  • List of all classes of incompatible materials (e.g., classes of chemicals or specific substances) with which the chemical could react to produce a hazardous situation.
  • List of any known or anticipated hazardous decomposition products that could be produced because of use, storage, or heating. (Hazardous combustion products should also be included in Section 5 (Fire-Fighting Measures) of the SDS.)

 

A new format was established in 2012,  which didn't have to be implemented until 2015, and which may have new standards from when I was working with these  well before 2012. The big problem is that MSDS are not well regulated. From what I can tell, they don't have to receive approval before publishing, and nothing bad happens until OSHA makes a visit. MSDS issues are the most cited violations from OSHA, either from the seller or the buyer. I have a feeling most of those citations are from lack of MSDS access by employees, not for MSDS content accuracy. I don't think I've every seen an MSDS for a glaze material that addresses the gassing issue. I think they consider them to not be flammable, therefore they don't apply to firefighting issues and they don't think beyond that.

Edited by neilestrick
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I made the original post and started this thread. So I am going to ask the CAN Adminstrator to delete it in its entirety. (Your call to make)

My final thought: I cannot find my friend and advisor: Mr. John Baymore. I cannot PM him, cannot access his profile, and his pictures are gone from threads he posted in. Please tell me he is still a Moderator and a trusted source of information? 

Tom

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Dear community,

I am reluctant to say much at times and yet we moderators do often discuss issues among ourselves, and often solve our differences in private.

If your remember may previous post here expressing my concern in the following manner:

I also hope that all of you involved in such a negative manner will understand the harvest of your actions.

I wrote that statement after reading the posts, and realizing that John had handed in his resignation effective as of Friday night. John has informed me that he doubts he will be participating in the forum in the future. I would hope that none of this had happened, but it has, and now as a community we have to find the will to continue on. I will be mourning the loss of one of our greatest assets for a long long time.

 

 

sadly,

Pres 

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Thank you for giving us an explanation, Pres,

Respect is key to human communication and community wellbeing.

I also hope John realises the great need this forum has for a member of such integrity ,knowledge and ability to deliver this to others so willingly.

Thank you again Pres.

 

I also hope John returns.

He has been wiped, even his likes have gone, I hope his rich past posts are not also deleted.

 

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28 minutes ago, Babs said:

I hope his rich past posts are not also deleted.

 

I agree, and hope John will one day return and continue to contribute, as I value his experience and knowledge greatly.

 No posts should be deleted from this or any other forum thread by anyone.  It is against the spirit of these forums and the free and open sharing of information, both for current participants and (perhaps even more importantly) for the many who will come to learn here in the years ahead.

If people regret things they said then don’t say them in the first place.  Deleting posts once they are out there is a kind of lie, an attempt to pretend things didn’t happen or weren’t said that we all know were said and did happen.   As a community, we are better than that and need to be honest.  If mistakes were made, just as in our own ceramic practice, hopefully we learn from them and do better next time.  If you think you may have offended someone, a simple PM to apologise goes a long way.

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On 12/2/2017 at 7:42 PM, curt said:

I agree, and hope John will one day return and continue to contribute, as I value his experience and knowledge greatly.

 No posts should be deleted from this or any other forum thread by anyone.  It is against the spirit of these forums and the free and open sharing of information, both for current participants and (perhaps even more importantly) for the many who will come to learn here in the years ahead.

If people regret things they said then don’t say them in the first place.  Deleting posts once they are out there is a kind of lie, an attempt to pretend things didn’t happen or weren’t said that we all know were said and did happen.   As a community, we are better than that and need to be honest.  If mistakes were made, just as in our own ceramic practice, hopefully we learn from them and do better next time.  If you think you may have offended someone, a simple PM to apologise goes a long way.

+1 (million) for what Curt said. 

If posts are selectively deleted it distorts the record.   I don't believe when someone quietly leaves/stops posting that their posts "are disappeared", so I don't understand why John's posts would be deleted.  They constitute a valuable part of this forum that were freely given by a contributor. 

I too am sorry that John has decided to leave the forum, and I hope that he can find a way to return.  Personally. I've benefitted from his posts (as well as few PM's with him).  I hope that currrent and future members who search the forum will have access to the knowledge and opinions he shared.   It concerns me to think that searches are going to be made selectively incomplete and unreliable.

Regarding our community and going forward, I hope we can recommit to playing respectfully in our Ceramic Arts Network sandbox.  It's virtually impossible to put the genie back in the bottle on an electronic forum once you hit send.  With that in mind, I'd like to suggest that we keep in mind  a meeting ground rule that is frequently used at the paying job that allows me to indulge in my ceramics passion.  That rule is:  "it's OK to disagree, but it's not OK to be disagreeable."  This promotes healthy discourse conducted in a positive manner.  For the most part, our community has followed this approach it's one of the reasons that I (and others) choose to hang out here.  I think our online community is special, and I hope we can keep it that way.

-Stephen

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Using the analogy of comparing mistakes made in the course of learning pottery, and what occurred in this room is fair: and good. However, just  like pottery: some mistakes are unsavalegable and the only recourse is taking a hammer to it. This thread is not going to serve any useful purpose for those coming along in the future. IMO  

Even after the ICAN moderator asked everyone from refrain posting to it: the posting continues. Which tells me that  this thread adds nothing  to the craft of pottery, besides stirring  up  emotional responses: because the topic is lepidolite. 

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51 minutes ago, glazenerd said:

This thread is not going to serve any useful purpose for those coming along in the future. IMO 

Well, the claim is (quite rightly) that the forum exists as an archive of knowledge. This thread does contain quite a wealth of knowledge about Lepidolite and the potential hazards of using it, and that seems to me to serve a very useful purpose indeed. As a side dish, we also learn about the dangers of other fluorine-bound compounds. Win-win, as they say.

There exists the facility to see what visitors to the forum are perusing - bottom right of the welcome page, 'Who's Online (See full list).'  It's quite instructive to browse there occasionally, just to see what people are looking for, and where their interests lie - I've found all sorts of interesting stuff that I didn't know existed, just by following people around. Anyway, I would hate for it to be the case that someone looking for information on Lepidolite failed to find this particular thread because it had been deleted.

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To be perfectly honest and perhaps unpopular I was a bit surprised how quickly this escalated and suspect there is more going on here.

The discussion about flourine was, at least for me, civil and informative. The duscussion around MSDS sheets and kiln atmospheres and emmisions was also very much worthwhile.

The bit that blew up was lost on me for the most part and probably explains why I feel like i'm missing something here. I'm ok with this. There are times I wish i was more blissfully ignorant of the world around me.

 

GEP, Sputty and Pres like this

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