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Safety concerns aside...

On 11/27/2017 at 2:41 AM, Tyler Miller said:

I’m going to go ahead and perform the role of the mod here, since that’s not being performed.

im-in-charge-here-happy-alexander-haig-d

 

This thread started out in jest until Tyler insisted and Mea agreed that people were conducting business, a far reach in my opinion.

From what I see linking one's website that sells a product is okay. I've seen people list prices on products they sell and that's okay. Offering a class or workshop is actually doing business and that's okay. But joking about selling is not allowed, so maybe we need clarification on what is conducting business and what is not.

Lastly, I p ersonally feel its in poor from for one Mod to reprimand another Mod in public. This is something that should have been done in private.

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17 minutes ago, RonSa said:

so maybe we need clarification on what is conducting business and what is not.

Clear guidelines are available here, and they always have been.

 

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Thank you Mea.

Based on those guidelines there is no clear intent for any one to gain financially from their posts

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As I already said, I know they were jokes. But we can't allow forum rules to be circumvented with jokes. Just imagine how far that could be taken. Sorry to be the wet blanket, I'm doing my job. 

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@neilestrick

Let’s leave aside the forum mod’s general responsibility for a second and instead look at the specific safety responsibility.  Fluorine gas, and hydrofluoric acid are two of the most reactive substances on the planet.  Fluorine compounds are so reactive, in fact, they can oxidize oxygen. The discovery of the element killed or maimed well over 20 men.  

This is not silica, or even lead.  It’s a whole other level.  While it is true that at normal temps lepidolite is safe and stable at room temp, it is not during firing.  

Let’s say someone asked for a source for yellowcake uranium (the compounds of which have indeed been used as glaze pigments).  Or ammonium nitrate, or mercury fulminate.  Suddenly the scope if safety shifts, doesn’t it.  Is it ethical to post a source for anfo or yellowcake?  Is it ethical for a publishing platform to NOT immediately comment on that product?

This is the level of safety we’re talking.  Not chronic injury; sudden permanent blindness, horrific chemical burns.  Is it ethical for a mod not to comment when they (should) know the risks inherent in using that product, being in possession of it.  People DO use these products in glazes, but they also use uranium and other dangerous exotics and that’s OK, but a discussion on it needs to be heavily heavily disclaimed, and the ones who moderate that discussion shoukd do the disclaiming if they can.

I know things are usually cordial here, but I stand by my comments and I would feel negligent were I to not say something.  honestas probitasque per se semper desiderandae.  For me, at any rate.

 

18 minutes ago, RonSa said:

Thank you Mea.

Based on those guidelines there is no clear intent for any one to gain financially from their posts

It was the punchline of the joke, which is why it was coming dangerously close.  All that needed to happen is “You serious?  I’d pay that” and suddenly it’s actual business.  I didn’t say there was a ruke break, but that it was dancing a line.

Edited by Tyler Miller

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19 minutes ago, Tyler Miller said:

It was the punchline of the joke, which is why it was coming dangerously close.  All that needed to happen is “You serious?  I’d pay that” and suddenly it’s actual business.

Reminds me of the movie “Minority Report” where people get arrested for crimes they commit in the future. :D

 

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11 minutes ago, RonSa said:

Reminds me of the movie “Minority Report” where people get arrested for crimes they commit in the future. :D

 

Yeah, no.  1) I have no arresting authority.  2) commenting that someone is entering a grey area, who should know better, is not arresting someone for a potential crime, but it is commenting on the fact that someone is entering a grey area when they should know better.  And that type of comment is, to my original point, the appropriate for a mod hence my comment I was taking on his role.

 

 

Edited by Tyler Miller

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2 minutes ago, Tyler Miller said:

Yeah, no.  1) I have no arresting authority.  2) commenting that someone is entering a grey area, who should know better, is not arresting someone for a potential crime, but it is commenting on the fact that someone is entering a grey area when they should know better.

 

 

It's not your job to police the moderators. That falls to the other moderators or their superiors. I think it was bad form to do it publicly. John deserves the courtesy of a private message if you're unhappy with his performance. Or you could have just as easily made your point about the dangers of fluorine without mentioning him at all, if that was the true point of your post.

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On March 11, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Jennifer Harnetty said:

I thought I would post these here just for reference...

Forum Terms of Use/User Agreement

CeramicArtsDaily.org and its related forums are owned by The Ceramic Publications Company, a wholly owned subsidiary of The American Ceramic Society, a non-profit organization headquartered in Westerville, Ohio. The Ceramic Publications Company reserves the right to change the Terms of Use/User Agreement at any time. The changes will appear in this section, and by using these forums you agree in advance to accept all changes.

All information is presented as is, and your reliance on any information presented on this site or its forums is at your own risk. Although Ceramic Publications Company may monitor discussions, postings and other user generated content from time to time, we are under no obligation to review material on the web site, and you agree to hold us harmless from any actions based on content that you post or read on these sites.

The content of this site and its forums is for private, non-commercial use only. No advertising of products or services is permitted, and any content deemed inappropriate will be edited and/or removed by the site administrators and moderators at their sole discretion.

Messages express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of these forums or The Ceramic Publications Company. Any user who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to report that post using the "report" button included on each post. We have the ability to remove objectionable messages and we will make every effort to do so, within a reasonable time frame, if we determine that removal is necessary.

You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use these forums to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's 

You agree not to post any copyrighted material to these forums unless the copyright is owned by you or by these forums.

These Terms of Use and User Agreement, and any disputes arising out of or related to these forums and related sites, shall be governed by, construed and enforced in accordance with the laws of the State of Ohio.

Both  John and Marcia used the term " hoard" or "hoarding." Which by definition means to keep or amass. By extension would mean...not for sale.

i know one of the Administrators will be through shortly. I would like to recommend that an addition be made to the terms of service: no forum member may act as, exercise the duties of, or engage under any pretense the duties of a Moderator: unless said person has been designated by the Publication Company as a Moderator.

Tom

whole lot of friction going on where there should be none, solely because one person usurped authority.

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23 minutes ago, Tyler Miller said:

I was taking on his role

Have a Happy Haig Day

 

16 minutes ago, neilestrick said:

It's not your job to police the moderators. That falls to the other moderators or their superiors. I think it was bad form to do it publicly. John deserves the courtesy of a private message if you're unhappy with his performance. Or you could have just as easily made your point about the dangers of fluorine without mentioning him at all, if that was the true point of your post.

+2 ThumbsUp.gif.9be5936782244ed1a1693bd1ef2002bd.gif

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read the entire posts and place in context when quoting.

a.long off the market,

b a couple of hoarders have some

c. If off market and sources are hoarders ,end of story,

d. Moderators with no humour, who'd want them.

Timmy can't go down corner store and get any, long off market, hoarders have what's in the US.

SMILE it can effect your look on life, but it may cause wrinkles.

hope this doesn't drive John underground, I enjoy his great knowledge and experience he so readily shares with us though how he finds time I do not know.

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WTDnnwE.gif

Can we all just agree that this conversation as degraded into madness and get it back on track instead of pitchforking each other. I am not a mod nor want to be, but I value opinions from both sides and I think all good discussions come with an open mind. The ability to keep that mind open relies on people not beating each other into a pulp if one disagrees with the other. If people start to feel afraid to make a post, even if it was a bad one, then what are we doing here as a community?

Edited by Joseph F
extra whitespace

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On 11/27/2017 at 3:43 PM, glazenerd said:

C. Banks

There are five or six grades of fluorspar, but Fed. Regs will only allow the sale of acid grade to the general public. By chance have you read the MSDS sheet on acid grade fluorspar from Laguna?

section two will be of interest to you, as will section ten. Section ten deals with reactivity of this material, which states:

that hydroflouric gases may be released at temperatures above 1000C, in the presence of moisture.

That said, caution is a good thing. Gloves, masks, and ventilation should always be observed. My kilns are in a building over 200 feet from my house, with lots of power ventilation. If they were in my garage or basement, there are certain materials I would not use.

How much moisture is available to the atmosphere of a kiln at above 1000C?

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One byproduct of natural gas combustion is water vapor. I can't say specifically how much there would be during a firing, or if it's enough for the reaction you described. I suppose it would also be different for every kiln.

One time a student accidentally turned off the powered vent hood over my indoor gas kiln, and within an hour the studio was swampy with humidity.

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1 hour ago, Rae Reich said:

How much moisture is available to the atmosphere of a kiln at above 1000C?

In an electric kiln? At least some I would imagine given that natural convection is probably moving some small amount of new air into the kiln through bung holes, etc., particularly if you fire with the bungs open.  And if you have a kiln vent going, well, probably a lot more since there is a constant flow of new atmospheric air being sucked into the kiln. 

In a gas kiln?  I would guess the kiln atmosphere would be seeing much more atmospheric moisture than at room temperature.  Fuel needs air flow to burn.  Atmospheric moisture is getting dragged into the kiln via both the primary and secondary air intakes along with the gas.  And that gas/air mix is flowing in at a goodly clip, which we know since most gas kilns have a small positive pressure inside.    

I think it has also been established that, chemically, water aids in a reduction firing.  One of the reasons a good rainy day always makes for better reduction (or so I am told...) 

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7 hours ago, glazenerd said:

I would like to recommend that an addition be made to the terms of service: no forum member may act as, exercise the duties of, or engage under any pretense the duties of a Moderator: unless said person has been designated by the Publication Company as a Moderator.

When it comes time to give input on the forum terms of service, I have plenty of suggestions I would like to make about how a host of issues are handled, including copyright of posted material, editing of posts, deletion of posts, transparency, etc.   

However, for the subjects at hand I kind of agree with Joseph.  Please let that poor horse go, lol!   

I think Tyler's intentions re fluorine were good - clearly his focus was on the safety of forum members IMO.  

Regarding doing business on the forums, I like humour as much as the next person, but I agree that we have to be a little bit careful even if we think we are joking, or that others are joking.   It is often hard for folks to communicate the mood or underlying intention of their comments - never mind other subtleties, such as sarcasm - in a written context without a lot of extraneous explanation.  It happens all too often that a given reader interprets something the wrong way, depending quite a bit on how their day has gone up to that point.  

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14 minutes ago, curt said:

When it comes time to give input on the forum terms of service, I have plenty of suggestions I would like to make about how a host of issues are handled, including copyright of posted material, editing of posts, deletion of posts, transparency, etc.   

cough cough, yes sir! Brings to mind someone living in a glass house and throwing stones.

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Are you kidding!

I have been away for the weekend, without internet. I am truly amazed at how this conversation has degraded in the last 72 hours.

It started out as a search for a product from a supplier. . . no problem there, then there with jokes about hoarding so much of the material, that eventually slipped into accusations that slighted a very knowledgeable, and responsible moderator that has helped many of you over the last several years, myself included. Since when does one of the members take it upon themselves to act as a moderator, thus implying that the moderators are not doing their jobs?  Then to have supporting action by another moderator!!! I am truly ashamed of what I have seen. I also hope that all of you involved in such a negative manner will understand the harvest of your actions.

 

sadly,

Pres 

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Curt:

there is a section up above to suggest changes to the forum, I would recommend making your suggestions there. They have already made changes to editing and removing posts: although bringing back the numbering system would be useful.

always appreciated your input because you had a cohesive argument to make, supported by links to documents. Then again, we have been disagreeing since we ate lunch with Ron Roy at KC back in 2016. Too bad you had to cancel your visit to my studio when you came through Southern Ill. To visit your parents, I was looking forward to it.

Ms. Hartney has already made a post about copyrighted materials posted on the forum. She is absolutely correct, I should not expect that information  to be retained. Foolish of me to think it would apply to begin with, yet another reason I pulled most of it down. However, I did  PM you some of that information because of your interest in it.  

gallery_73441_1154_1382382.jpgmin: you were close, I do live in a mostly glass house. Being a builder, I used structural R glass that with stands impacts of up to 140 MPH. People like throwing stones at new things. Been building for 42 years, and have replaced many windows because people like to throw stones. 

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1 hour ago, glazenerd said:

there is a section up above to suggest changes to the forum,

I was unaware such a section existed.  Have just had a look again and cannot see it.  Can you or someone else direct me to it?

1 hour ago, glazenerd said:

They have already made changes to editing and removing posts

Again, I was totally unaware of this.  Can you tell me where these changes have been posted?

 

1 hour ago, glazenerd said:

Ms. Hartney has already made a post about copyrighted materials posted on the forum.

Do you mean Jennifer Harnetty?  Is this something recent?  Again, where is it posted?  

EDIT: I have seen a very brief statement regarding intellectual property from Jennifer from October 6 under the Forum FAQs, if that is what you are referring to.  It does not address the issues that concern me.

I know we are well off topic here, but these are important issues which have an impact on how I (and probably others) participate in the forums and I have not seen them addressed anywhere.  Maybe I have just missed it, but I have been looking.

Edited by curt

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Curt:

the first section about Forum FAQ and Help has several threads under it: including one about the new forum Joel started. I know GEP was involved in many of the changes, she is probably the one to ask. Just post your questions or comments up there, I am sure one of the a Mods will have or get an answer for it.

 

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