Reylocs Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Hello, i just purchased a new paaragon Viking 28. I want to add a lid element. In hindsight i should have purchased a bottom loading kiln but i didnt so i want to convert my new kiln. I need my kiln to fire to cone 10 with the lid element. I want to remove one section of my kiln(it has three) install a lid element of some sort and connect it to the wires I unhooked from the ring section i removed. My kiln is 14400 watts (4800 for each section) so cant i just install a 4800 watt lid element, wired to where the section of the kiln i removed? I am talking with paragon, and they want to give me a new lid with elements in it. The new lid has a watt rating of around 9700, they say this will only heat to 1700f too low for what i want to do. The problem they say is that they cant get enough elements in the lid to work the way I want.(i want a hotter top element) They say if the lid is too hot the controller wont work properly. I dont understand. Why cant i find a 4800 watt lid element and just wire it to the controller. I hope this makes some sense to someone. Can someone offer advise or explain why i cant get what I want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Cone 10 is hard on electrics and keeping elements in the lid is hard I'm sure especially at cone 10. I'm not the electric expert but the kiln has to be a cone 10 kiln from the start with the right lid to work-Is their some reason you did not get a cone 10 with element lid in the 1st place?Whatever the manufacturer says is the real deal. Does paragon make a cone 10 with elements in lid to begin with??Maybe this is not something that is made?What they is what they make. Does L& L offer a cone 10 with elements in lid kiln? Best I can do is say ask them.I'm a L& L fan. mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reylocs Posted July 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 I have no experience with kilns. Paragon does not sell cone 10 kilns with lid elements. Other manufacturers do. I dont understand why I am getting the resistance from them that I am getting. I am not asking for any kind of warranty on this. Yes in hindsight I should have bought a kiln from a different source.(not because the paragon kiln is not well built or not that they havent been trying to help, but, i just feel i am getting so much resistance from them) Other manufacturers put elements in lids that go to 2200 to 2300f. I just cant get them to give me a solution that goes hotter then 1700f i need the top element to heat to at least 2150f. Part of this is my lack of knowledge on the electrical theory of controllers and elements. I do want to stress that paragon is working with me on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Bridge Pottery Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 What do you mean when you say a bottom loading kiln? Why does there need to be elements in the lid? You can work out how much power you need for a kiln. Theoretical max temperature C = Watts * Thickness / (Area * K) So you could work out the watts needed for a temperature. C is temp, K is the thermal conductivity rating of the brick with area of the kiln and thickness of the brick wall. The equation does not specify time so I would go with a temperature of maybe 1500degoC to get a wattage that is not going flat out to reach the top temperatures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 I"m not sure why you think you need lid elements to get to cone 10. There are a lot of engineering issues with kilns that those of us who don't build them are generally unaware of. If Paragon says it's not that simple, then it's not. It's not just a matter of watts, there's also the matter of location and balance. Lid elements are not necessary to go to cone 10. You just need a kiln that's got enough power to do it. A simpler solution would be to beef up the wattage of the existing elements. L&L does not do lid elements. Too many potential problems with them to make them worth dealing with, and L&L (like many manufacturers) can engineer kilns that perform just fine without lid elements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pres Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 I noticed from your web site for Paragon that the elements in the lid are offered on a few other kilns. This is strange, because so many manufacturers do not place lid elements, preferring to put them in the floor instead. Most electric kilns rated to fire to 2350F. will reach ^9, even a soft ^10, but that really puts a lot of stress on the elements over a short period of time, thus the popularity of low to mid-range stoneware with most folks firing to ^6. I find it interesting that you require cone 10, yet admit that you have very little experience with kilns or firing. Maybe you need to reassess your needs as the kiln you have purchase looks like a top of the line well built kiln that would give you many years of service at ^6. Then again, maybe this is a one shot or two deal that requires ^10, and I know nothing of that sort of requirement. Best, Pres Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggoodman Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 do you own a router? if so rounting a path for the element & pinning it in place is easy then either A: make a simple pid controller with a relay for just that element B: tie it into the existing kiln circut(checking relay size, wire and ... first.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reylocs Posted July 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 I understand i dont need lid elements to get to cone 10. The piece i am working on is 26.75 in in diameter and i need a lid element for what im doing. Olympic makes a 2814e top hat they call it It fires to cone 10 and has a variable lid switch. In hindsight yes i should have purchased something else. So i am trying to convert what i got or sell it and get something else. Ggoodman, could you help me that was my first idea but i have no clue how to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reylocs Posted July 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 The piece im casting has to have a lot of heat directly over the face of it not the edge. I need a top element. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Sounds like you need a glass kiln setup, however those do not go to cone 10, or even cone 6 much of the time. The lid in the Paragon kilns probably has a lower power rating than the walls because you just don't need that much power in the lid if the walls are working properly. The lid element plays a supporting role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 This is a basic thought process-elements in lids want to fall out from grafity-so they must be pinned in -at cone 10 (the range that I have 40 years working in) is extremely hot and elements will want to sag big time-simple physics. As to casting tell us the process-you poring in metal or doing burn outs or something else?More info on what you are doing would help. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggoodman Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 What am I missing Mark C. If a manf does it then why can we the use the same method of anchoring or securing the element that they do? To the OP your getting resistance because you are asking to modify a giant fire/electricle hazard. I would figure out how the manf. does it then model theirs but you had damn sure better have a good idea of what your doing or you could at best kill yourself or at worst kill others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Lid elements sit into a groove, but the flop out and stretch a lot, even in glass kilns that don't go much above bisque temperature. At cone 10 the elements will be a lot softer and much more likely to move, so any groove you make will have to be pretty deep, with lots of pins to keep the element in place. More info on what you're doing would definitely help. It sounds to me like you're going to end up with some really uneven heating, which is generally not a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reylocs Posted July 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 I would like the lid to be on a variable control. Use it when casting the piece then turn the lid off or very low and anneal with the side elements and controller. Sounds like i should purchase a different kiln. I had no clue of the can of worms i would open. The olympic kiln with the variable lid element that goes to cone 10 seem just like what I want. I just cant for the life of me figure out why i cant adjust the one i have to match the olympic. The kiln i have is 60 amp the one option paragon gave made it 104 amps. I am so frustrated. I am not doing any work while i cant get this figured out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reylocs Posted July 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 I probably could get away with 50 amps to do this piece Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reylocs Posted July 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 I have a large complicated mold filled with large chunks of boro. I want a top element. Others have them custom kiln builders build them. I dont understand why some dont get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Bridge Pottery Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 What is boro? I think we are not understanding because it's not a typical ceramic firing. Do you have a circuit diagram of how it is now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 So you're casting borosilicate glass in a mold? Why do you need cone 10? Have you tried it without a lid element? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggoodman Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 I have a large complicated mold filled with large chunks of boro. I want a top element. Others have them custom kiln builders build them. I dont understand why some dont get it. it's not hard, Get an element, rout a groove, slide element into groove , build or buy a controller to suit your needs. neither I nor anyone else can give you a step by step guide on how build a kiln to do exactly what you want it to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Min Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 I think that one bit of important info is missing when talking about the Olympic / Paragon kilns with a lid element that can go to ^10. It is my understanding that the kilns with lid elements are dual media kilns, the lid element is used for low temp glass work but when firing above that it is not used. I'm thinking this is the optimal use for a lid element. It just doesn't make sense having a lid element for going to ^6, let alone ^10. There is a reason electric ceramic kilns don't come with lid elements. From Olympic: Quick Overview DM2023HE 240 or 208 volt Dual Media for firing ceramics and equipped with a lid element for fusing glass Inside dimensions: 30" wide x 20" front-to-back x 24.5" deep, fires to cone 10/2350°F Dual Media kilns are designed for the individual or business who works with multiple media. The dual design for reaching high firing temperatures for stone ware, pottery, ceramics and the lid element for fusing glass provide the versatility needed. Oval dual media kilns are built with a 2" blank brick row in the first section of the kiln to protect the elements when loading and unloading the kiln. All Dual Media models high fire to 2350°F and have a lid element to fuse glass. From the Paragon site re one of their Janus kilns with lid element: The Paragon Janus-23 can fire both pottery and glass. Heating elements are mounted in the lid and sidewalls. Select between glass and pottery with the flip of a switch. With the switch in the glass position, heat comes from the top elements and the middle sidewall element. With the switch in the pottery position, heat comes from only the sidewall elements. In the glass mode, fuse and sag large glass projects placed on a single shelf. In the pottery mode, fire to cone 10. You can also fire several shelves of smaller glass pieces using the pottery mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reylocs Posted July 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2015 I have elements, i have a controller, i know hjow to put the elements into the lid. I dont know if the watts,amps controller will work. I thought someone might answer that could help me with figuring the part i dont get out. I might be in the wrong place i guess. I know what i need, i have seen the equipment its done with. Unfortunately i saw the equipment after my kiln purchase. The equipment had a top element. I guess i will try a kiln manufacturer for glass commercial ovens maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reylocs Posted July 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2015 This is endless, i cant use a dual mefia kiln it doesnt get hot enough with the lid element. 1700F doesnt work for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judy_in_GA Posted July 24, 2015 Report Share Posted July 24, 2015 Be careful what you say...you are asking for help and people are trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reylocs Posted July 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2015 I appologise for being on the ceramic forum and talking about glass. When i started this thread I hadnt noticed that it was late last night when i joined. I called olympic today to confirm their 2814e top hat kiln goes to cone 10 with the lid element. Plus the lid element is on a variable controller. I was hoping to do the same with what i have. Maybe i dhould sell the paragon and buy the olympic. Would anyone be interested in a viking 28 with type S thermocouple, computer port for logging the fireing 12 key orton controller. Fired once, for $3000. I live near phila. Pa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Min Posted July 24, 2015 Report Share Posted July 24, 2015 try these people http://www.euclids.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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