I want to troubleshoot by diagnostic numbers, not the “vibes”

[Callie Beller Diesel]

So my firing experience is largely analog in my personal practice. However at work, we have all kilns with super snazzy Genesis 2.0 controllers on 2 different ConeArt models. I’m more than a little in love with the fact that they run their own diagnostics and have an app. (I’ve got a BX 2327D 208 A 3 phase and 2 GX2822D 208A 3 phase.)

My problem is that I don’t know how to interpret the diagnostics numbers that it gives. Yes, I can compare them to the factory diagnostics, but I’m not sure what any changes in amps or volts means, or how much those changes might indicate how much wear. And also, wear on what part of the kiln? Elements? Relays? Thermocouples?

I’ve read all the manuals I could find from Bartlett and ConeArt, and watched the videos. I can export the logs successfully, but I don’t know what to do with that data. I found that website that makes a graph from the export logs from last year. 

If anyone needs an example problem to start with, my bisque in the 2327D is taking longer, and I think it’s the thermououples, as they’re crispy lookin’ and cracked. The kiln has about 100 firings to cone 04, so I wouldn’t expect elements to be going quite yet*. What numbers am I looking at to confirm or deny this theory?

 

*it’s not impossible that it’s the elements, but visual inspection looks fine. But I heavily tumble stack it with the work of a lot of raw beginners 2-3 times a week. It goes very slowly, and takes about 16.5 hours, creeping to 17, including a 3 hour preheat. It’s well ventilated, and only had one error code when a shelf was placed too close to a TC.  This kiln has only seen about1 glaze firing on my watch. By the cones, it only gets to an 05, with 04 still having hard edges and no movement. 

[Hulk]

I'd guess that time to 05 would be stable for a long time (given the mass/load and the available current voltage are constant), as the controller would/should just click the elements on more - higher "on" percentage - to keep up with the targets.

When the kiln can't keep up with the firing targets, then it would take longer?
If the available data indicates "on" percentage (e.g., how many minutes per hour "on"), the lagging segment would likely be "on" a lot, whilst the others may also be struggling, but likely are tapping their feet, waiting. 

[neilestrick]

There's really nothing in the controller diagnostics that will help to diagnose wear of the elements, thermocouples, or relays. Maybe the relay life number but first you have to wear out a set of relays to have a baseline number for how many cycles a relay will last in your particular kiln. Relay life can vary from 50 firings to 600 firings depending on the kiln and the kiln room environment. If you have the current sensor installed it can read the amperage draw of each section, but translating that number into element resistance requires mathing it out, so it's easier to just measure the element resistance.

As Hulk said, the kiln will simply increase how long the elements are on with each relay cycle to compensate for elements that are wearing out. At some point they will be worn enough that you'll see the firings take longer. The best indicator of element life is to measure their resistance with a meter. Another thing you can do is to use the firing cost calculator to see if firings are costing more even if they're not taking longer. At some point you can say 'okay, there is a cost benefit to changing the elements now'. I once ran a set of elements in my e18T-3 until it could no longer get to cone 6, and firings were costing double what they did with new elements. Some elements will look horrible and slump over and measure weird even though they're working fine. A couple of the elements currently in my eQ2827-3 are totally slumping over but the cost of my firings has not increased at all, so I'm ignoring them.

If you want to keep up on maintenance and not have to worry about  downtime due to broken kiln parts or inaccurate firings, change the thermocouple every 100 firings and the relays every 200 firings. Start measuring element resistance at 100 firings and every 20 firings thereafter if you're glaze firing to cone 6 and your kiln is rated to cone 10. If you're just using is for bisque you can probably wait until 150 firings before you start checking them, and check them every 30 firings.

As for the downloadable firing charts, mostly it's just fun to geek out on them and make charts and stuff, but they can also be useful in a couple of ways. For one, you can see if the kiln is actually able to keep up with the firing schedule it's running. It samples every 30 seconds, so you can math out the rate of climb over a few minutes and compare that to the programmed rate of climb. That's also helpful in seeing how fast it can cool. It can also be helpful with diagnosing problems, because you'll be able to see if a section is lagging behind the others of you have a multi-zone kiln.

[Bill Kielb]

This may help
Holding the firing data aside, the indirect important part of the diagnostics would be the section amperage and voltage which will give you the wattage. The wattage IS the amount of energy the kiln was designed to provide to heat and is most affected by the element wear. As the elements wear their resistance goes up and the power they provide decreases by way of lower amperage draw. 

Since the Bartlett control diagnostics measures amperage and voltage by section the section wattage can be calculated by the voltage X amperage. So as long as your mains voltage is consistent then simply comparing the new amperage with the current amperage can reveal if the heating energy has decreased significantly since new.  One can also easily compute the resistance for each section which will be more accurate than measured cold by dividing the voltage by the amperage and comparing with new.

Since most kilns are designed at 110% then a Reduction of wattage or an Increase in resistance by about 10% usually means the elements are fairly worn and ready for replacement.

Calculating the resistance is usually much better than measuring it provided the measuring equipment is accurate and usually is taken when the elements are heated. It’s hard to measure this heated condition with an ohm meter,  the accuracy of the meter is more challenged as well. When measuring single digit resistance amounts VS double digit amperage, the amperage readings are easier to measure with accuracy ……… and can be done without opening the control box for the Bartlett Genesis.

If voltage in the tests are fairly close then just comparing the amperage will give you a feel for the wear. If the voltage between the tests is similar then a reduction in magnitude in amperage of about 10% from new reflect the approximate state of wear.

If all the sections are the same amperage , then comparing amongst them or if different then comparing the magnitude of difference could indicate a section problem. If one section has changed significantly it could indicate worn relay contacts are increasing the resistance of the section and not necessarily worn section elements.

The manual just makes a note that comparison of these readings is useful ……. A bit understated I think

Just to add - thermocouples are just two pieces of dissimilar metal twisted or welded together at their tip - nothing more so when the tip junction breaks the thermocouple stops working. Often an early sign of impending failure occurs when the insulator cracks from the corrosion beneath. See pict below, when we see a crack wee just schedule a changeout.

Edited August 29 by Bill Kielb

[Min]

4 hours ago, Callie Beller Diesel said:

By the cones, it only gets to an 05, with 04 still having hard edges and no movement. 

If all 3 zones are showing the 04 is under firing and you do want to get to 04 then you could do a cone offset.

[neilestrick]

If the kiln is firing inaccurately to a similar degree at all temps, then do a thermocouple offset. Thermocouple offsets affect all temps. If it's firing accurately at some temps but not at others, then do a cone offset.

3 hours ago, Bill Kielb said:

When measuring single digit resistance amounts VS double digit amperage, the amperage readings are easier to measure with accuracy ……… and can be done without opening the control box for the Bartlett Genesis.

This assumes that the kiln has a current sensor, which the majority of kilns out there in the world do not have. Measuring resistance with a meter is plenty accurate in most situations. The only time I ever measure amperage and calculate the resistance is if the resistance measurements are goofy due to the elements slumping over or if I can't find a good contact point for the meter due to surface corrosion. Both methods work, but most people will have more confidence with measuring resistance and comparing that to the factory numbers rather than trusting they've done the math correctly. Plus the resistance numbers the manufacturers publish are for cold readings. They literally say to measure the elements with a meter while the kiln is cold and unplugged and compare that to the numbers their numbers for new elements.

[Bill Kielb]

1 hour ago, neilestrick said:

This assumes that the kiln has a current sensor, which the majority of kilns out there in the world do not have. Measuring resistance with a meter is plenty accurate in most situations. The only time I ever measure amperage and calculate the resistance is if the resistance measurements are goofy due to the elements slumping over or if I can't find a good contact point for the meter due to surface corrosion. Both methods work, but most people will have more confidence with measuring resistance and comparing that to the factory numbers rather than trusting they've done the math correctly. Plus the resistance numbers the manufacturers publish are for cold readings. They literally say to measure the elements with a meter while the kiln is cold and unplugged and compare that to the numbers their numbers for new elements.

The controller I believe has current doughnuts so it measures current and measures voltage. The Genesis comes with to generate diagnostic reports so it sounds like they are present per section. If they are not there, then there will be no meaningful diagnostic report. Meters are great I have many and 50 years experience of measuring all sorts of things. Bartlett built this diagnostic so you can compare with new so really a good thing IMO. Cold measurements are fine, but they built this diagnostic to remember the actual  initial wattage (current and amperage) to compare as your kiln ages sort of voltage independent or at least real-time accurate using the actual operating voltage under load. You need a couple independent measurement devices to do that and it basically cannot be done concurrently measuring resistance while the kiln is under load.

Again if it doesn’t exist then you can’t use it. If the report exists then I find no reason to not suggest using it. Meter skills are great though, just flat out less accurate. If they paid for this option, I suggest use it to easily keep an eye on things very accurately. I respectfully disagree if you are discouraging its use. I do agree it’s great for folks to obtain meter skills though. I am thinking both can be had and built in diagnostics that support real time current and amperage are probably easiest and less invasive to run on occasion.

 

 

[Dick White]

5 hours ago, Bill Kielb said:

The controller I believe has current doughnuts so it measures current and measures voltage.

Skutt installs a current doughnut as standard equipment, but many others do not. I don't know what @Callie Beller Diesel's ConeArt has in it. If not special ordered when the kiln is being built, you can get one direct from Bartlett and install it yourself. Without the current sensor, there will be no amperage diagnostics. I don't know how the diagnostics detect voltage as there is no direct connection between the controller board and line voltage. Perhaps it detects variances in the 12V input coming off the transformer, i.e., if there is line voltage sag, the 12V from the transformer will also sag proportionately?

The cost calculation presents an interesting conundrum. The inputs are (a) designed kW per section and (b) utility billed cost. The controller is tracking on-time in 30 second increments, and simply accumulates the kWh * billed rate. As the on-time increases due to worn elements, the cost calculation increases with it. However (and those who know more than me about these sorts of things, please correct me), the true reason firing times are increasing is because the elements are worn and producing less heat (watts) and thus requiring a longer time to reach temperature. We can measure the element resistance with a meter and the controller can measure amperage (if the current sensor is present), and both are directly correlated mathematically through Ohm's Law, so either measurement can be a surrogate for the other (and watts will appear in the equation as a useful side effect), i.e., the 10% rule of thumb for measured increase in element resistance can be translated to a comparable decrease  in amperage draw as shown in the controller diagnostics. As elements wear, resistance increases and amperage goes down, and watts also go down. That would suggest that although on-time may increase, the kWh used do not and thus the cost should be the same. The fallacy in the controller's cost calculation is the assumed constant kW per section. And then the secondary fallacy in my theory is radiant heat losses through the kiln shell. The longer the kiln is on due to failing elements, the more of that precious heat is being wasted into the atmosphere, so kWh used will increase by the wastage. 

[Bill Kielb]

2 hours ago, Dick White said:

Perhaps it detects variances in the 12V input coming off the transformer, i.e., if there is line voltage sag, the 12V from the transformer will also sag proportionately?

Yes

2 hours ago, Dick White said:

ing is because the elements are worn and producing less heat (watts) and thus requiring a longer time to reach temperature.

Yes so even though intuitively it seems you need the same total developed  heating over the firing  from start to finish, the total standby losses increase considerably. Good theory, commonly referred to as standby losses.

 

2 hours ago, Dick White said:

That would suggest that although on-time may increase, the kWh used do not and thus the cost should be the same. The fallacy in the controller's cost calculation is the assumed constant kW per section. And then the secondary fallacy in my theory is radiant heat losses through the kiln shell. The longer the kiln is on due to failing elements, the more of that precious heat is being wasted into the atmosphere, so kWh used will increase by the wastage. 

Yes if assigned  and not measured and totalize. it does not reflect true consumption. Surprising, even  low cost energy monitors track VA down to the second and totalize from there. (Seconds, Minutes, hours ….) Might be a product of old non measured approximation or expense of memory if true on Genesis with current doughnut(s). According to the manual it is initially measured by first (factory) diagnostic and logged for future comparison as well as a place for new element change diagnostic.

Edited August 29 by Bill Kielb

[Hulk]

My new kiln doesn't have current feedback. 
The electricians that completed our initial solar install put a current device ("Nurio") in the wrong place. They ordered new devices before making the trip to correct/fix the reporting problems, then left the two new devices with us. I'd thought about installing the devices in the kiln... nah. Then I thought about putting just one on the kiln's feed line, hmm.

[Dick White]

10 hours ago, Bill Kielb said:

Yes if assigned  and not measured and totalize. it does not reflect true consumption.

The reason I mention the fallacy of assigned kW rather than measured consumption is that the controller will present a cost of firing even when a current sensor is not present. With no doughnut, it can't give a measured cost. With a doughnut, the cost calculation doesn't use it. It appears that the only use of the current sensor is for the amperage diagnostic - which is a good enough easy surrogate for element health instead of poking around inside to get a resistance measurement.

[neilestrick]

The cost analysis is just counting relay time 'on' and mathing it out with the watts and cost per kwh you input. It's just an estimate. But even if it isn't super accurate in terms of dollars, it's still a good way to see if the kiln is working harder. If your electricity supplier is anything like mine, the cost per kwh isn't consistent due to the way they price things. My actual cost can vary by several cents per kwh from month to month depending on how much power I consume and when I consume it. So even if the controller was dead accurate in terms of its calculations it would still just be an estimate.

[Bill Kielb]

11 hours ago, Hulk said:

I'd thought about installing the devices in the kiln... nah. Then I thought about putting just one on the kiln's feed line, hmm.

I can vouch for the emporia platform that has proven to be low cost and reasonably accurate in about 100 locations now. Free web interface, integrates well with solar to record your offset and has alarm functions and time of day notifications I believe. Our experience, economical here and so far has performed above expectation. Has been extremely handy in viewing loads and explaining to folks that freezer with the bad door gasket in the basement costs this much. Anyway solar, real time, 1 second granularity, alerts …. I can say have worked well for us, many locations.   Gen 2 - 8 circuits ~100 $bucks$ easy to monitor your kiln, solar offset an other loads. Free web app and cloud account.

Edited August 30 by Bill Kielb

[Callie Beller Diesel]

This  conversation has gone way off track. While I love a good technical discussion, solar and non-Cone Art related electrical add ons aren’t germane in the slightest to my original question. 
 

Y’all are answering like I have familiarity with electrical engineering principles, and I don’t. Nor do the bulk of our forum members, I’ll wager. 

I need some step by step instructions along the lines of “find this number and compare it to this number over time”. Or “the manual diagnostic numbers mean ____ about ___kiln part.” Or if that isn’t possible, say so. 

Since the manual diagnostic is set up and functioning, let’s assume my controllers have one. 
While I own a multimeter, I don’t know if it’s the right kind for a kiln. 

[Dick White]

@Callie Beller DieselIf you run the manual diagnostic on the Genesis, it will click a few times, hum a bit, and then a list of things will come up on the screen. If the amps items have numbers other than zero, your kiln has a current sensor installed. If the amps are all zeros, then there is no current sensor and it could not measure the amperage draw for each section (the controller turns each section on individually for a few seconds to measure the amperage draw of the elements in that section alone). Let's assume for now that your kiln has the sensor and you are getting numbers. The factory diagnostics report what the amperage draw should be/was when it left the factory. You now have a present-day reading. I'm sure you know that elements wear out over time, produce less and less heat each time, and the firings get longer, until it just can't finish, and you get the dreaded E1 error, which is usually technobabble for "replace the elements." The recommended more proactive approach is measure the resistance of each element (or the pair of elements in each section because you can't electrically isolate one from the other) from time to time and when the ohms of resistance is 10% or more above factory spec, replace the elements (kinda like tires on the car - check the treads and replace when the treads are even with the treadwear bar, don't wait for a blowout on the highway). Measuring the resistance is complicated and a PITA - you have to open the control box and poke around with the meter probes and the numbers bounce around until you hit a nice clean spot on the wire. Without starting a math lesson about Ohm's law, resistance of the elements and amperage are directly, but inversely, related. As resistance goes up, amperage goes down. The manual diagnostic reports amperage at the touch of a button. If the reported amperage is 10% below factory spec, that also means the resistance of the elements is 10% above factory spec. Easy peasy, no muss, no fuss, do what you have to, if anything.

[Bill Kielb]

1 hour ago, Callie Beller Diesel said:

I need some step by step instructions along the lines of “find this number and compare it to this number over time”. Or “the manual diagnostic numbers mean ____ about ___kiln part.” Or if that isn’t possible, say so. 

Maybe this
Sorry about all that - how about run the diagnostics, post what you have and assuming you get readings ………. in about 5 lines or less bullet point style we can show the step by step. I am certain you will find it simpler to do than reading the description of same keeping it pertinent to I want to troubleshoot by diagnostic numbers, not the “vibes”

[neilestrick]

@Callie Beller Diesel Here are a bunch of video tutorials on how to check things on your kiln with a meter. The layout will be a little different since your kiln is a different brand, but all the same parts are there.:

https://hotkilns.com/support/troubleshooting

https://hotkilns.com/test-resistance-ez

https://hotkilns.com/test-resistance-jupiter

If your meter has the Ohms symbol- little horseshoe symbol- then it can measure element resistance. Most all digital meter have that. And you do want to use a digital meter, not an analog one with a needle. On your kiln you'll need to check your element resistance right where the elements connect to the feeder wires. Ask coneArt for the element resistance and compare your numbers to theirs. Your elements are probably wire in parallel, meaning two elements get power at the same time from the same relay, so you'll be measuring two at a time sine they're wired together. That means the measurement you get from the meter will be half that of a single element. So double what you get from the meter and compare that to what ConeArt says it should be. If your elements are measuring 10% more than the factory number then they're due for replacement.

In my experience, when elements start to read higher than new, they go bad pretty quickly. It's not a consistent change from new to dead. You'll get perfect readings for a long time then they'll suddenly read worse and go downhill fast.

For relays, like I said if you just change them every 200 firings you'll probably never have to worry about one dying during a firing. For thermocouples, every 100 firings or whenever they look pretty nasty.

[Callie Beller Diesel]

Thank you @Dick White and @neilestrick, that is exactly what I was looking for. 

New ConeArt kilns with the genesis 2.0 do have the sensor. It would be weird to sell a brand new $7200 kiln that’s only partially set up. I can and have run diagnostics, and they are recorded in both the last diagnostic menu, as well as the readings for the last 10 firings in the firing menu. What they don’t include is a layman’s explanation of how to interpret those diagnostics, nor does Bartlett.

I am well used to analog kilns with dubious cone sitters, not this nice new thing that’s got a neatly labelled wiring harness and keeps its own kiln log. I could get used to it though.

Edited September 5 by Callie Beller Diesel
Updated current price of a new GX2922D

[Dick White]

I have also used the amperage readings to diagnose unexpected sudden failures. Once a relay crapped out too early in its expected life, causing an E1. The amp diagnostic reported a zero for one section with good numbers for the other two sections. The most likely way both elements in a section go out simultaneously is a failed relay. In another situation of a sudden E1 long before expected, the amp diagnostic reported half the expected amperage for one of the sections - one of the 2 elements had a loose connection. With the amperage diagnostic, I knew quickly where to start looking for the problem.

[Pres]

At the HS, I used to keep a listing of dates with Ohm readings on kiln sections, It helped me to determine my orders as at the HS orders for the next year had to be done by March. I could also determine is something might be drastically wrong if numbers changed greatly but the visual inspection was as expected. Then I had to check "under the hood". Open each of the  panels to check the leads. 

 

best,

Pres

[Hulk]

Looks like firing log "percent on" values could be used to keep track of element degradation.
The other bits, relays and thermocouples, they should work until they don't?
I believe that's fairly true, and hence, perhaps counting firings for both, replacing at reasonable interval, else, at failure.
I'm thinking reasonable interval.

My kiln doesn't have the current/amperage feedback*.
I apologize for not being clear, above.
That's the main thing. The questions are more than dealt with.
...I wish it did, but maybe not enough to choose it as an upgrade option. Is current sensing an option? I'm not seeing it.
Comparing amps consumed per firing, that is more direct than looking at the "percent on" values.
As the elements wear, it should take more power to do the same work.


I downloaded last glaze log this afternoon, per instructions here** Exporting Firing Logs on an L&L Kiln Genesis Control | Hot Kilns
Looks like a data line every thirty seconds, with columns
Setpoint, temp1, temp2, temp3, out1, out2, out3, out4

where I'm guessing:

Setpoint - same number we see on the console, the "target" (temperature) from the firing profile
temp1, temp2, temp3 - same numbers we see on the console, pyrometer values from zone 1, 2 and 3
out1, out2, out3 - idk, are these "percent on" values? If so, for what, the current thirty second time slice only, since the firing began, over a specified window, what***?
out4 - all zeroes
I'll assume the out1-3 values are "percent on" for the current thirty second interval****.

If that's true, then comparing firing ramps/segments (especially where the kiln is able to keep up ok with the setpoints!! ...easier to compare, equal time intervals, yes?), over time, the percent of "time on" should increase, increase, and eventually push the time for the ramp. 

What I learned:
Downloading the logs is easy. I wish now that I had done so afore commenting on this thread.

Regarding my glaze fire log, looks slowing down for the last 200°F was a good idea.
The bottom kiln segment is the limitation doing 250/hour from 1600 to 2000, where it's on 98-100 of the time and goes a bit over on the time specified.
Between 2000 to 2200, where the rate is dropped to 112/hour, the bottom segment is in the 80s to low 90s
Many firings from now, I'd expect the 1600-2000 ramp to take longer, and the 2000-2200 ramp would have higher numbers for "percent on"

I'll just compare by glancing over the numbers, for myself, where, given what I'm seeing in the latest log, I'd expect the 1600-2000 ramp take longer as the elements wear and the bottom segment still the laggard.
If for others' consumption, then maybe graphing the data - stick with horizontal for time, vertical for temperatures and "percent on" where perhaps a single 0-300 scale (aggregate) might be sufficient?

Amps should be easier and more direct.

*I just learned something about current sensors earlier this year, per 29-AUG-2024 comment in this thread...

**never mind the "troubleshooting" - just transcribe the IP address without error?
ok pesky skinny numeral seven ah din' see it there, parallel to the / before login, eeh, 7/login, yeah, I don't hear very well either, what's that?
What?
This is from my new (last year) kiln, which has a Genesis touchscreen controller.

***I'm not finding a layout for the logfile

****would seem to make sense, looking over the data, where all three, out1-3 go to zero on the free fall from peak to hold at -100°F from peak; where the top and bottom fire more during the hold, and also during the controlled cool to 1850°F

[Dick White]

2 hours ago, Hulk said:

Looks like firing log "percent on" values could be used to keep track of element degradation.
The other bits, relays and thermocouples, they should work until they don't?
I believe that's fairly true, and hence, perhaps counting firings for both, replacing at reasonable interval, else, at failure.
I'm thinking reasonable interval.

 

Yes, preventative maintenance is preferred.

2 hours ago, Hulk said:

My kiln doesn't have the current/amperage feedback*.
I apologize for not being clear, above.
That's the main thing. The questions are more than dealt with.
...I wish it did, but maybe not enough to choose it as an upgrade option. Is current sensing an option? I'm not seeing it.

The current sensor is often an added-cost option when ordering at the time of build. Some brands put one in as standard equipment. It's a $40 (retail) item directly from Bartlett (surely less to the kiln trade and who knows what the "upgrade" cost is when ordered as part of the initial build). It is not difficult to install. It plugs onto a pair of wires protruding from the back of the Genesis controller board, with a small plastic ring on long wires through which one of the main power wires must pass. The ring is basically the same as a clamp ammeter, except permanently installed inside the control column. Once installed, the manual diagnostics from the menu will turn each kiln section on sequentially and record the amperage being pulled by that section. As previously noted, amps and element resistance are inversely proportional: element resistance (if measured with a multimeter) goes up by 10% = amperage reported by the diagnostics goes down 10% = time to change the elements. Watch for change over time.

 

3 hours ago, Hulk said:

where I'm guessing:

Setpoint - same number we see on the console, the "target" (temperature) from the firing profile
temp1, temp2, temp3 - same numbers we see on the console, pyrometer values from zone 1, 2 and 3
out1, out2, out3 - idk, are these "percent on" values? If so, for what, the current thirty second time slice only, since the firing began, over a specified window, what***?
out4 - all zeroes
I'll assume the out1-3 values are "percent on" for the current thirty second interval****.

If that's true, then comparing firing ramps/segments (especially where the kiln is able to keep up ok with the setpoints!! ...easier to compare, equal time intervals, yes?), over time, the percent of "time on" should increase, increase, and eventually push the time for the ramp. 

 

The setpoint in the log file is an interim setpoint. When programming the firing schedule (or accepting the pre-programmed cone fire schedule) you set a target temp and ramp rate for the whole segment - go to X degrees at Y degrees per hour. If the kiln elements are capable, the total elapsed time can be calculated by the user and the kiln will complete on time. At the controller level, it will divide the the ramp into 30-second intervals and calculate for itself what temperature to work towards for that 30-seconds. That's the setpoint shown in the log. If the kiln elements are up to the job, the recorded temperature for that interval will track. If the elements are lagging, the controller will simply stay on until the setpoint is finally reached.  Then a new setpoint will be calculated by the controller for the next interval. The log will show the actual temps and you can see the lag.

3 hours ago, Hulk said:

Regarding my glaze fire log, looks slowing down for the last 200°F was a good idea.
The bottom kiln segment is the limitation doing 250/hour from 1600 to 2000, where it's on 98-100 of the time and goes a bit over on the time specified.
Between 2000 to 2200, where the rate is dropped to 112/hour, the bottom segment is in the 80s to low 90s
Many firings from now, I'd expect the 1600-2000 ramp to take longer, and the 2000-2200 ramp would have higher numbers for "percent on"

I'll just compare by glancing over the numbers, for myself, where, given what I'm seeing in the latest log, I'd expect the 1600-2000 ramp take longer as the elements wear and the bottom segment still the laggard.

Yes, the bottom section works the hardest (heat rises), but watching the percent-on at the higher temperatures can give you a good picture of how the dreaded E1 occurs near the end of the firing - the hike up the mountain is always harder the closer you are to the mountain top.

3 hours ago, Hulk said:

****would seem to make sense, looking over the data, where all three, out1-3 go to zero on the free fall from peak to hold at -100°F from peak; where the top and bottom fire more during the hold, and also during the controlled cool to 1850°F

If you want to learn some fun facts about your kiln, add another segment after the controlled cool to 1850°F to continuing cooling at some outrageous rate (maybe even 9999) all the way down to 100°F. In order to accomplish such a cooling rate (which it can't), the controller will turn the elements off and the kiln will cool naturally, obviously slower than the outrageous rate you set. Then download the log file and graph the cooling rate over time. You'll see by the numbers exactly how fast it cooled for that first 100°F and how the last 100°F takes forever.

Enjoy, dw

[Bill Kielb]

51 minutes ago, Dick White said:

The current sensor is often an added-cost option when ordering at the time of build.

1 hour ago, Dick White said:

It's a $40 (retail) item directly from Bartlett

@Dick White Do you know the specs on the CT? (Current loop or voltage output)  My thought is if someone has one with an actual part number 50/100 amp CT’s standard accuracy are likely readily available these days with the popularity of solar and monitoring equipment  ……. Now Can be had for  $10.00 - $20.00 range

[Dick White]

9 hours ago, Bill Kielb said:

@Dick White Do you know the specs on the CT? (Current loop or voltage output)  My thought is if someone has one with an actual part number 50/100 amp CT’s standard accuracy are likely readily available these days with the popularity of solar and monitoring equipment  ……. Now Can be had for  $10.00 - $20.00 range

Dunno any specs, but here is a picture of it on Bartlett's page https://www.bartlettinstrument.com/product/current-sensor . It has a small proprietary circuit board that attaches to the prongs on the back of the controller, so I doubt one could  DIY it from a commercial source the way we do with relays and switches for a third the price charged by the kiln companies.

[neilestrick]

10 hours ago, Dick White said:

If you want to learn some fun facts about your kiln, add another segment after the controlled cool to 1850°F to continuing cooling at some outrageous rate (maybe even 9999) all the way down to 100°F.

Definitely use 9999. If you put in a number like 800F/hr and the kiln can't cool that quickly, then you'll just get an error code. At 9999 the controller doesn't care how fast it's actually cooling (or heating). This is a great exercise to see how your kiln cools.