Kiln purchase, round 2

[Pyewackette]

Well I bought a kiln once and then had to give it away.  Now it looks like we may be on the cusp of moving again - we'll probably know for sure in a few weeks.  I'm thinking about a kiln again, post move.

The one I bought and never got to use was an L&L Eq2827-3 Equad-Pro. I've since seen it unboxed (still not hooked up at the studio GRRRR!) and its really not all that big.  And I AM making taller stuff now so ... I want a taller kiln.

My choices boil down to the EQ2836-3 EQuad Pro or the similarly sized JD2936-3 Jupiter.  Both are listed at 13.6 cu ft.  I have no idea why the Jupiter model is 29xx, the description says its 28" wide but whatever.

The quad elements are standard on the EQuad pro and extra on the Jupiter.

The Jupiter has a bottom element, the EQuad Pro does not.

The Jupiter is easily disassembled so you can put big things in and then lower the rings around it.  I don't think you can do that with the EQuad Pro, the Jupiter has a pull-apart lid option.

I don't know how heavy the individual rings are on either model.  I do have a son to help out with this but I don't know how much help *I* would be.  I'm pretty strong for my size and age, but the "age" part of that equation continues to ... move, shall we say.  (I will be 65 tomorrow, aka officially "old").

They both now come standard with the Genesis controller.

I might could do with the xx27 model of either but haven't decided for sure yet.  My biggest thing so far was 21" and that seemed pretty big to me but I don't know that I want to limit myself so early on.  The Jupiter allegedly lets you add a ring later but that seemed to be an issue when I was thinking about it before. You can't do that with the EQuad Pro.  The xx36 models require more amperage which may or may not be a significantly higher expense to install.  Just trying to get my ducks in a row.

And yes I do plan to fire to cone 10 on occasion.  I really wish I could have a gas kiln but I'd likely have to win the lottery AND hire somebody to make sure I met all the permitting stuff.

As a side note, they haven't hooked the kiln I gave them up at the studio yet (OVER A YEAR NOW!!!) because they don't have the right kind of power.  They have 208 single phase or 240 3-phase.  The kiln is 240 single phase. I was looking at how to change it from 3-phase to single phase

https://hotkilns.com/support/policies/changing-voltage-phase

and it seems they just need new terminal blocks for the elements, and a new power cord if it came with one which I don't think it did (they have to be hardwired).  They say "some" models may require a change of elements as well, not sure which models "some" are.

However I can only find "terminal blocks" for Easy Fire Kilns, and for EQuad Pro they have Type K thermocouples with terminal blocks.  But the terminal blocks are to plug in elements so ... doesn't seem like the right kind of terminal block?

https://hotkilns.com/kiln-parts/type-k-8-ga-thermocouple-standard-25-3-brick

The control panel as a part says it does not come with the terminal blocks.  But I can't find them by themselves for the EQuad Pro.  Help?  What would it take to convert the EQuad Pro 2827-3 from 1 phase to 3 phase?

I'm pretty sure they have sufficient amperage as there is currently an enormous oval Skutt wired in there, it is defunct, not the least reason being that it is a 208v kiln plugged in (for years) to 240v power.  Don't ask me, I just throw there.  

[Denice]

You are into much bigger kilns than I am,  I bought a L&L e235 with the heavy elements  and genisis controller.   It is a ring shorter than my old Skutt,  the L&L has a bigger diameter than my Skutt so my husband put wheels on the L&L.  I roll it out to the middle of the kiln room and load and fire it,  roll it back in the corner after I unload it.   I can touch the bottom now but I will have to size down my work.  Happy birthday,  65 is a big event.   I just turned 71 in October not a big deal just happy you made it another year.   Denice

[neilestrick]

The kiln you got rid of has a 27" tall interior, which is pretty tall. If you need taller than that then the 36" models are the way to go, but I would look at if you really need that much total volume, or if you can get away with a narrower model, which would be cheaper and not require such big electrical loads.

You will not be able to lift the rings on and off by yourself with a 28" model. With a 23" model would still get help just to make sure you don't bump the work in the kiln.

The Jupiter does not have floor elements unless it is special ordered.

The eQuad uses the same elements for single or 3 phase on each voltage. An element change is needed to change voltage, though. No power cord on the single phase models.  Single and 3 phase models use different terminal blocks where the power connects, see HERE. You could use the 3 phase block on a single phase kiln, but not the other way around.

[Pyewackette]

@neilestrick I would have the assistance of my son to lift the sections.  How much do they weigh on theJD2936-3 (100A), and how much on the JD236V-3 (80A)?  They do not list a 36" tall version of the Equad pro in the 23" diameter, only 27".

I don't think I need new elements for the phase change of the kiln you already sold me.  L&L only lists ONE part for quad elements for the EQ2827 and it specifically labels them for either 1 or 3 phase.  Were you thinking of the Easy Fire?  That one DOES require new elements.  I'm not changing voltage, only phase.  You may be conflating that 208v oval kiln they had wired in to the existing 240v 3-phase circuit - I'd be switching my 240v 1-phase kiln to 3-phase to plug in to the existing 240v 3-phase circuit that currently has a 208v kiln wired in to it.

https://hotkilns.com/kiln-elements/eq2827-element-240v-1-3-phase

What is the advantage/disadvantage of the bottom element being available in the Jupiter and NOT being available in the EQuad Pro?

What's the EQuad Pro got that the Jupiter HASN'T got (or can't get by getting the optional Quad elements)?

Am I correct in assuming that only the Jupiter can be easily unstacked for loading large items?

I was shocked to find out that the elements for the EQuad pro are $118 apiece and you need EIGHT of them for the 4 section EQ2836.  Ditto the JD2936-3.  However elements for 23xx series are only $10 cheaper and I would still need 8 of them for a 36" tall kiln (which only seems available in the Jupiter series in a 23" diameter).  I'm not seeing a huge advantage in going to a narrower kiln.  Is it such a huge difference to wire for 100A over 80A?  The situation there won't be the same as here, all the existing 240v circuits will be in use so I'm going to have to add service either way. (In my own house here I don't use a dryer or the stove and there was an additional 50A and 20A circuit added by a previous owner, also unused by me, so I had plenty of unused capacity).

Given the expense of the elements I am, of course, very interested in your report of how your elements have been holding up, or anybody who fires Quad elements. However, with a larger kiln, I am thinking I would only be doing one bisque and one glaze fire per month at my peak soooo ... I would think one set of elements MIGHT last me for the rest of my pottering life, depending on how often I push it all the way to cone 10.

Don't underestimate me.  Right now all I have to throw with is porcelain and I'm turning out multiples every day - I'm just getting geared up, after a long struggle with a clay body I couldn't adjust to.  When I get my stoneware I expect to progress even faster.  And yes, I AM Throwing Big, and intend to continue to do so - maybe even Bigger.  I'm on the fast track, bay-beee!

That said I might be fine with a 27" tall kiln.  21" is my tallest piece to date and it seemed pretty big to me, way bigger than anything I'd thrown before.  But I might could go taller yet. Also you lose an inch or two putting a bottom shelf in (to protect the real bottom). So I should probably assume like 25" available in a 27" tall kiln (and 34" for the 36" height).

Dude. I'm on the cusp of attaining Real Clay with which to throw.  I'll see how things are going over the next few months, and post-move (which isn't actually scheduled yet but hopefully is upcoming soon or at least soon-ish).

Edited November 13, 2023 by Pyewackette

[neilestrick]

1 minute ago, Pyewackette said:

How much do they weigh on theJD2936-3 (100A), and how much on the JD236V-3 (80A)? 

I'm checking on this. I'll get back to you.

5 minutes ago, Pyewackette said:

They do not list a 36" tall version of the Equad pro in the 23" diameter, only 27".

You don't want a 36" tall version of the eQuad because you won't be able to reach into the bottom without pulling it apart. Only 6'4" tall people can reach the bottom of that kiln. You need the Jupiter if you go that tall.

6 minutes ago, Pyewackette said:

I don't think I need new elements for the phase change of the kiln you already sold me.  L&L only lists ONE part for quad elements for the EQ2827 and it specifically labels them for either 1 or 3 phase.  Were you thinking of the Easy Fire?  That one DOES require new elements.

Correct. As I said, the eQuad uses the same elements for both single or 3 phase for each voltage. They'll only need to change elements if they need to run it on 208 volt service.

11 minutes ago, Pyewackette said:

What is the advantage/disadvantage of the bottom element being available in the Jupiter and NOT being available in the EQuad Pro?

Bottom elements are only needed if you are firing really heavy loads like a kiln full of plates or tiles. The Jupiter is a bit more customizable, so they offer it there. The eQuad is sold as-is, no customization, mostly because the control box can't fit more stuff.

13 minutes ago, Pyewackette said:

What's the EQuad Pro got that the Jupiter HASN'T got?

A nice simple control box that doesn't have a bunch of external cords, so fewer parts and easier maintenance.

13 minutes ago, Pyewackette said:

Am I correct in assuming that only the Jupiter can be easily unstacked for loading large items?

Correct.

14 minutes ago, Pyewackette said:

I was shocked to find out that the elements for the EQuad pro are $118 apiece and you need EIGHT of them for the 4 section EQ2836.  Ditto the JD2936-3.  However elements for 23xx series are only $10 cheaper and I would still need 8 of them for a 36" tall kiln (which only seems available in the Jupiter series in a 23" diameter).  I'm not seeing a huge advantage in going to a narrower kiln.  Is it such a huge difference to wire for 100A over 80A?  The situation there won't be the same as here, all the existing 240v circuits will be in use so I'm going to have to add service either way. (In my own house here I don't use a dryer or the stove and there was an additional 50A and 20A circuit added by a previous owner, also unused by me, so I had plenty of unused capacity).

The Quad elements last a lot longer, so they pay for themselves and you don't have to change the elements as often. The difference in hooking up 100 amps vs 80 will depend on a lot of factors, so you'd need to get quotes from your electrician.

15 minutes ago, Pyewackette said:

Given the expense of the elements I am, of course, very interested in your report of how your elements have been holding up, or anybody who fires Quad elements. However, with a larger kiln, I am thinking I would only be doing one bisque and one glaze fire per month at my peak soooo ... I would think one set of elements MIGHT last me for the rest of my pottering life, depending on how often I push it all the way to cone 10.

Firing bisque and cone 6 (40/60), standard elements last about 130-150 firings. With the quads they last about 250 firings or more. I've had customers get 300+. The more you fire to cone 5 and above, the greater the benefit of the Quad elements.

[Pyewackette]

@neilestrick Thanks.  Looks like its the Jupiter for me. Even with the Bailey version of the advancer shelves, being able to pull the kiln apart to load it even if I'm loading smaller stuff would be a lot easier on me overall. 

Since I probably WON'T be stacking things densely I'll probably pass on the bottom element, if there's no other advantage to having that.

I'm hoping the new clay arrived today at the studio (HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO ME if it did) so I can get started on finally making (morebetterfaster) progress.

It's only the ultimate kiln size that seems to me to be up in the air now.  We'll see.  

Edited November 13, 2023 by Pyewackette

[neilestrick]

@Pyewackette A 28" quad ring weighs 78 pounds, and it's terribly awkward to lift and carry alone.  A 23" quad ring weighs 61 pounds, and is still unwieldy enough that I wouldn't try to lift it by myself over a piece in the kiln.

[Min]

Lot of good information here @neilestrick, good of you to address all the points in such detail!

[Pyewackette]

@neilestrick Thanks.  And I wouldn't be lifting a kiln section of any size by myself.  That's what the fruit of my loins is for.  Plus I have a grandson who is a teenager-in-development.  By the time I won't be much help doing that any more, he should be up to the task along with his dad.

@Min I bought my last kiln from Neil.  Most likely I'll be buying the next from him as well.  Unless I can wangle a gas kiln.  Totally dependent on whether or not the ultimate new domicile has a gas hookup or not, and if I can convince my DIL that a gas kiln is way less scary than an electric kiln.

I mean I really really really want a gas kiln.  We'll just have to see (1) if its at all possible and (2) if getting it permitted in a residence is a bigger pain in the a... tuckus ... than can be dealt with.

THEN I'll have to go to work on DIL.

So the odds-on favorite is the Jupiter.  But a girl can dream ... so can an old lady.  

[neilestrick]

Happy to help! @Pyewackette what is it about the gas kiln that you want?

[Pyewackette]

@neilestrick

1. reduction
2. high fire
3. reduction
4. no elements to replace, and fewer electric/electronic doodads overall
5. reduction
6. It can do everything an electric kiln can do (though bisque firing seems like it might be trickier) but an electric kiln can't do what a gas kiln can (for instance reduction)
7. reduction
8. reduction
9. reduction
10. reduction

I've got a reduction obsession now.  I've been spoiled having access to regular reduction firings.

I should probably have thrown a few more high fires in there as well.  I've got a porcelain thing going now, too.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Pyewackette

[neilestrick]

42 minutes ago, Pyewackette said:

@neilestrick

1. reduction
2. high fire
3. reduction
4. no elements to replace, and fewer electric/electronic doodads overall
5. reduction
6. It can do everything an electric kiln can do (though bisque firing seems like it might be trickier) but an electric kiln can't do what a gas kiln can (for instance reduction)
7. reduction
8. reduction
9. reduction
10. reduction

I've got a reduction obsession now.  I've been spoiled having access to regular reduction firings.

What specifically do you like about reduction- certain glazes, certain clay bodies, the process,...? Not being negative about it here, just getting a feel for what you want from a kiln. I talk to a lot of people who want reduction simply because that's all they know and haven't had much experience with oxidation, or have been working at a studio that had horrible oxidation glazes. If you can be happy with cone 6 oxidation, the whole process of getting kiln set up and firing successfully will be faster, easier, and less expensive. I totally get the allure of reduction- I fired gas, wood, and salt for 12 years before switching to electric, and loved it.

[Pyewackette]

@neilestrick Pretty much all of the above.  I like the glazes, shinos, etc, the way the same slip or glaze can give you varying results.  There's a sort of freeness to it.  Glaze results are less constrained and, I feel, more natural.  Some people have been able to more or less imitate these results at ^6 in an electric kiln - Shikha Joshi for instance - but at great effort.  Shikha Joshi refires her glazed pieces as many as 4 times to get the results she wants.

I'd love to do soda firings but given how it eats away at bricks I probably can't.  But I can get close to those sorts of results at ^10 reduction through judicious selection of glazes and firing schedules. I've read about different processes that allege they can achieve similar results but haven't been able to try them, like ash glazes or washes that can help get flashing on a pot without exposing the entire interior of the kiln to soda fumes.  I can't try these if I don't have the kiln in which to try them.

And most porcelain fires better (or only) at ^10. If you're going to high fire a lot - and I would certainly like to do that - that's an awful lot of money in elements and other parts (over $900 for an element change in the 4 section Jupiter kilns).  Somehow I don't think those elements are going to get any cheaper.

I get that its not an automated process like in an electric kiln.  That also has a certain allure for me.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Pyewackette

[Hulk]

I still want gas!
Fire, flame, fun, go!

However, not practically possible at our previous home, same here at our new/current home.

The electric gets the job done. I love opening the kiln after a firing!

One of the "important" things was either existing solar or suitable for solar.
We sized the system with electric car, seven cubic foot electric kiln, 3/4 ton mini-split (Studio) and second EV (down the line) in mind.
That help$.

I'm liking the Quad elements.

[Pyewackette]

26 minutes ago, Hulk said:

However, not practically possible at our previous home, same here at our new/current home.

Eggsackly.  It may not even be possible wherever I end up.  Plus there's the DIL's anxiety to overcome.

[neilestrick]

@Pyewackette That makes sense. You like the atmospheric stuff, which gas kilns are great for and electric kilns are not great for. I will argue that cone 6 porcelains are just as good as cone 10 porcelains. I've used cone 6 porcelain for years and years and I don't see any advantage to the cone 10 porcelain I used to use. Both are white, glassy, and translucent.

[Pyewackette]

@neilestrick I'll grant you the porcelain, I've only ever thrown with ONE porcelain body and that for less than a month LOL!  I bow to your superior knowledge and experience.

However it also seems to be easier to find clay bodies with less than 1% absorption in cone 10.  That's an issue for bonsai pots and I want to get into bonsai pots.  Another reason for the atmospheric stuff, I think it looks better on tea bowls and bonsai pots, my two main interests (plus Big Stuff).

[neilestrick]

3 minutes ago, Pyewackette said:

However it also seems to be easier to find clay bodies with less than 1% absorption in cone 10. 

Cone 6 porcelain is definitely under 1%. Stoneware bodies can be, but many are closer to 1.5%, which is still pretty tight and within the range we call acceptable for functional work.

[Pyewackette]

@neilestrick Stoneware is preferred for bonsai pots.  There are porcelain bonsai pots and likely I will make some, but bonsai growers like to have a rough interior bottom as they say it enhances root growth and/or gives roots something to grab on to.  Porcelain doesn't really lend itself to that.  Also a lot of glaze effects look better or are easier to get on an iron bearing clay body.  That is also not porcelain. So I am not limiting myself to just porcelain.