laurasaurus Posted February 13, 2023 Report Share Posted February 13, 2023 Hello! I recently bought an older PSH now Euclid automatic kiln. The kiln is from '91 and has an Orton Autofire - very few buttons. I went to try a glaze fire and got an EtH error. Thinking it might be the thermocouple I took it out and readjusted it for a more snug fit. I then tried to fire it again and at about the 300F mark the relay would do a long or double click, the controller would beep and quickly shut down and then start up again and it would continue the firing. It did this about 3 times in the 300Fs until I aborted the firing. Could it be the relays? The elements look pristine and the kiln's former owner did the paper test. Some background. I was able to run a 08 bisque fire but when I tried to do the first test cone 6 glaze fire I got an EtH error which is kinda vague. I replaced the thermocouple which didn't do anything as I got the same error when I tried again. I then opened the controller and the part that connects to the thermocouple was all corroded. I cleaned it up and replaced the screws then tried to fire again and that is when I got the FtH error. Also, is it normal that in order to get the porcelain part that the thermocouple goes into to stay on the kiln was to bend the two prongs that go in the box at a 90 degree angle? I can't seem to find anything about Euclid kiln maintenance/troubleshooting online anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted February 13, 2023 Report Share Posted February 13, 2023 (edited) Interesting Eth is electronics too hot, Fth is failed to heat. Your manual https://www2.ceramics.nidec-shimpo.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Orton-Autofire-Manual.pdf. Eth means the circuit board is getting too hot, so why is it overheating. Maybe post a picture of your thermocouple issue it’s hard to interpret the description. Assuming the control is in a reasonably cool location and the circuit board is not overheating, I think I would write a single segment program to 1000 degrees f (537c) and see which elements heat and which don’t. Edited February 13, 2023 by Bill Kielb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted February 13, 2023 Report Share Posted February 13, 2023 Your post mentions both Fth and Eth? Is one of those a typo, or id you get both codes? You should not get an ETH unless the kiln was at high temps. The FTH could be caused by a bad relay, but at low temps that should only happen if you have a kiln with multiple zones, and the way you're describing it this only has one thermocouple? It's also possible that your 32 year old controller is dying. And yes, some thermocouple designs require bending it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurasaurus Posted February 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2023 5 hours ago, Bill Kielb said: Interesting Eth is electronics too hot, Fth is failed to heat. Your manual https://www2.ceramics.nidec-shimpo.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Orton-Autofire-Manual.pdf. Eth means the circuit board is getting too hot, so why is it overheating. Maybe post a picture of your thermocouple issue it’s hard to interpret the description. Assuming the control is in a reasonably cool location and the circuit board is not overheating, I think I would write a single segment program to 1000 degrees f (537c) and see which elements heat and which don’t. Thank you. The EtH error was sorted, I just provided it as background. it was the first error I got and that is when I changed the thermocouple and then opened up the circuit board and found that area where the thermocouple attaches was all corroded. I cleaned it up, ran the kiln again and this time got the FtH error. Right now I am trying to isolate the FtH error now, I heard the relays do a weird double clicking at about 300 and then the controller would beep and then go blank but then resume. Here is the thermocouple I replaced where you can see the prongs have been bent. The previous owner also put in a skutt thermocouple but I replaced it with a Euclid one that is more narrow and the prongs are thinner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted February 13, 2023 Report Share Posted February 13, 2023 Since you have a new thermocouple and it’s now in good order can you run a single segment test as above and see which elements glow and which do not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurasaurus Posted February 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2023 58 minutes ago, neilestrick said: Your post mentions both Fth and Eth? Is one of those a typo, or id you get both codes? You should not get an ETH unless the kiln was at high temps. The FTH could be caused by a bad relay, but at low temps that should only happen if you have a kiln with multiple zones, and the way you're describing it this only has one thermocouple? It's also possible that your 32 year old controller is dying. And yes, some thermocouple designs require bending it. Thank you! No typo, the EtH error was the first one I got and I am sure it was caused by the circuit board being corroded where the thermocouple wires go. I cleaned it up and then got the FtH error when I ran it. I adjusted the thermocouple and then bent the prongs so that I could attach the porcelain box to the kiln securely unlike how I had it before. Then I started the kiln and when it got to 300s the relays did a double-clicking, the controller beeped, shut down and then would restart and resume the firing. It did this 3 times in the 300s before I aborted the firing. This is leading me to believe it could be the relays but I am not 100%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted February 13, 2023 Report Share Posted February 13, 2023 1 minute ago, laurasaurus said: Thank you! No typo, the EtH error was the first one I got and I am sure it was caused by the circuit board being corroded where the thermocouple wires go. I cleaned it up and then got the FtH error when I ran it. I adjusted the thermocouple and then bent the prongs so that I could attach the porcelain box to the kiln securely unlike how I had it before. Then I started the kiln and when it got to 300s the relays did a double-clicking, the controller beeped, shut down and then would restart and resume the firing. It did this 3 times in the 300s before I aborted the firing. This is leading me to believe it could be the relays but I am not 100%. When you say it shut down, do you mean the controller actually turned off and then back on, and no error code? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurasaurus Posted February 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2023 6 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said: Since you have a new thermocouple and it’s now in good order can you run a single segment test as above and see which elements glow and which do not? I can do that tonight when I am back in the studio. I just took the sellers word that they were all good and that she did the paper test. Visually they good too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurasaurus Posted February 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2023 1 minute ago, neilestrick said: When you say it shut down, do you mean the controller actually turned off and then back on, and no error code? Yup, the relays did a weird clicking, then the controller beeped flashed off for a couple of seconds and then just resumed. It did that three times from 300F up to 390F which is when I finally just stopped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted February 13, 2023 Report Share Posted February 13, 2023 No worries, it can be a relay to one of the element groups. Easy to fix. The elements look to be in nice shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurasaurus Posted February 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said: No worries, it can be a relay to one of the element groups. Easy to fix. The elements look to be in nice shape. Do you think it could also be a weak connection on the thermocouple prongs? Like maybe the wire doesn't have a strong connection to the prong? I am thinking not, I think because of the relay clicking it's most likely them. This is my first kiln and I did not expect to be having to do this kind of stuff right from the get go. Thank you for your help! Edited February 13, 2023 by laurasaurus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hulk Posted February 13, 2023 Report Share Posted February 13, 2023 Looks to be in excellent condition, good find! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurasaurus Posted February 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2023 24 minutes ago, Hulk said: Looks to be in excellent condition, good find! It was a great find especially since it came with an Orton vent as well. I was just hoping to fire more than one bisque load before having to do all this troubleshooting! Hulk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted February 13, 2023 Report Share Posted February 13, 2023 1 hour ago, laurasaurus said: Yup, the relays did a weird clicking, then the controller beeped flashed off for a couple of seconds and then just resumed. It did that three times from 300F up to 390F which is when I finally just stopped. The relays and thermocouples will not cause the controller to shut off and restart. If there's a problem with the thermocouples or relays then you'll get an error code. Sounds like there's a power supply issue, either from your house's electrical service, or a bad connect in the control box, or the transformer in the control box is flaking out. Or, the controller itself is dying. When you got the ETH code (control board too hot), how hot was the kiln? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted February 13, 2023 Report Share Posted February 13, 2023 Is there a lot of corrosion on the circuit board? A 30 year old controller could definitely be failing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurasaurus Posted February 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2023 Studio power supply should be good, I had an electrician install everything and then when I got the original error (EtH) I had him back to check everything again. The control box is about 5 feet away from the kiln and was not hot at all. But when I opened it it was very rusty/corroded where the yellow thermocouple wire goes in. I removed the corrosion and rust, replaced the screws and then got the FtH error at 1898F when I tried to fire at cone 6.i think I fixed the EtH error and now need to fix the FtH one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurasaurus Posted February 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, neilestrick said: Is there a lot of corrosion on the circuit board? A 30 year old controller could definitely be failing. There was but I cleaned it up here are some before/after photos. Edit: I fixed the wire after in the after photo, the tubing is no longer under the screw. Edited February 13, 2023 by laurasaurus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted February 13, 2023 Report Share Posted February 13, 2023 9 minutes ago, laurasaurus said: Studio power supply should be good, I had an electrician install everything and then when I got the original error (EtH) I had him back to check everything again. The control box is about 5 feet away from the kiln and was not hot at all. The kiln controller is not mounted on the kiln? Post some pics of the whole setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurasaurus Posted February 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2023 Here are some photos when I opened it up. All tape that you see has now been removed so please ignore that, I just didn't take updated photos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted February 13, 2023 Report Share Posted February 13, 2023 Just a note here, really nice cleanup job! Oh, the note, the yellow wire looks like the insulation is trapped under the screw. I would double check this to make sure it is a good metal to metal connection. If it is an Fth error now, I still think you will need a test run to 500c or so to make sure all elements are working. From there if it is one set, then you probably can look at relays. The elements really look good. Who knows, you may find similar corrosion on the relay connections as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurasaurus Posted February 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2023 I don't have a photo of it all connected and set up but this will show you what I am working with. The black plug doesn't belong to the kiln, the kiln is hard wired. The white cable cover has been replaced by something more sturder (and up to code) this is what is hardwired. The black box on top of the kiln is the controller, it gets mounted to the wall. I haven't mounted it yet so while it is firing it is on a table about 5' away from the kiln itself. The kiln itself is 16" away from the walls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted February 13, 2023 Report Share Posted February 13, 2023 Hmm, just looking at the new pictures, two relays (my favorites, used them all across the country for a lighting controller may years ago) that drive a group of 4 elements. The little black tab on the side of the relay(s) is a visual indicator if the relay is powered on or not. I think if you run the test you likely will find one of these is not working. (Just a hunch) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurasaurus Posted February 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2023 9 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said: Just a note here, really nice cleanup job! Oh, the note, the yellow wire looks like the insulation is trapped under the screw. I would double check this to make sure it is a good metal to metal connection. If it is an Fth error now, I still think you will need a test run to 500c or so to make sure all elements are working. From there if it is one set, then you probably can look at relays. The elements really look good. Who knows, you may find similar corrosion on the relay connections as well. Thank you! I fixed the yellow and red wire after I took the photo so nothing is under the screw now. I also snipped the end of the wire and stripped it so that it's a more fresh connection. Will check to 500c tonight and really hope it's not the elements! The previous owner said that she did the paper test and it passed but I will try anything at this point! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Bridge Pottery Posted February 13, 2023 Report Share Posted February 13, 2023 Is the thermocouple in the right terminals? Looking at the end of this manual - https://www2.ceramics.nidec-shimpo.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Orton-Autofire-Manual.pdf it seems to say you should have them on different terminals. Can't see the JPR2 to see if it is bridged. Also on their wiring diagram the 6 pin next to it never seems to have 6 wires connected but I have less idea what that all means. Hopefully I am reading the right manual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted February 13, 2023 Report Share Posted February 13, 2023 Thank you for the great photos! You've got 3 different issues here: 1. ETH error code. This code happens when the circuit board in the controller gets too hot. It shuts down the firing so the board isn't damaged by the heat. The error code happens when the kiln room isn't properly vented to remove heat. I see it a lot in schools where the put the kilns in little storage closets that have poor air flow. It's virtually impossible for this to happen to a wall mounted controller because it's not close enough to the kiln to get hot. So that means the controller freaked out for some reason. 2. FTH error code. Could be anything. Do a paper test and see if all the elements are heating. That will also tell you if all the relays are working, at least at low temps. Failing relays can stick at high temps, though, so the kiln shutting off at 1898F could definitely be from a relay sticking once it got hot. 3. The controller turning on and off at 300F. There's no reason for this to happen if things are working normally. So either the controller is dying (consistent with the random ETH code) or there's a power supply issue. The power supply could be simply a loose wire (check all wiring connections) or a bad transformer (the thing below the relays-yours is pretty corroded), or possibly a bad fuse holder. Wiggle the wires connected to the fuse holder and the fuse holder cap and see if the controller shuts off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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