lindastone10 Posted February 11, 2023 Report Share Posted February 11, 2023 We want to install a heat pump but it would have to share the same circuit as my kiln because there us no more room on our electrical panel. Is it ok to switch the power back and forth or to run both at the same time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hulk Posted February 12, 2023 Report Share Posted February 12, 2023 Hi Linda, Welcome to the Forum. Good question! I'm sure it's proper for major appliances like heat pumps and ceramic kilns to run on their own dedicated circuits. We were able to free up some space on both our subpanels by taking out some full width circuit breakers and replacing them with half width/duplex breakers (aka slimline, twin, half, wafer, double - lots of names for the same thing). We didn't add enough to worry about exceeding the overall capacity... Would that work for your panel? Is it a main or subpanel in question? What's the rating on the panel, is it a 200 or 100 amp panel? What's the load on the panel before the heat pump - the existing load (current load, heh, err, current current load)? shawnhar 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted February 12, 2023 Report Share Posted February 12, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, lindastone10 said: We want to install a heat pump but it would have to share the same circuit as my kiln because there us no more room on our electrical panel. Is it ok to switch the power back and forth or to run both at the same time? I might be able to help here - been converting City of Chicago homes for a bit now and recently attended a meeting to discuss your area. Just a question or two, what size is your service in amperage ( main breaker size), how many positions are in the panel, do you have central AC, do you have an electric stove and do you have an electric water heater and do you have an electric dryer. Edited February 12, 2023 by Bill Kielb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted February 12, 2023 Report Share Posted February 12, 2023 (edited) You often can use twin breakers on small curcuits like outlets and lights -that is a breaker in a single slot that takes two circuits and has two switches. Use two of these and then you now have two open slots which you will need for another 220 double pole curcuit breaker . Use of twins frees up space.Every box is different as are the loads-this is where a good electrican is worth the $$ Edited February 12, 2023 by Mark C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pres Posted February 12, 2023 Report Share Posted February 12, 2023 I have the same problem as you with the circuitry and loads @lindastone10. I have a 100 amp service, with a 20 amp on the lights and sockets with a 70 amp for the kiln, and then I have a 20 amp for the garage style radiant heater and fan. I just don't run the heat when running the kiln killing it at the breaker. Way I figure it if the kiln is firing it supplies heat, otherwise the heat is on only when I am in there or need to keep things from freezing solid. PS I run a lot of my own wiring, but have the breaker boxes done by a registered electrician who also checks my wiring. best, Pres Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted February 12, 2023 Report Share Posted February 12, 2023 (edited) Hmm, hope you return to answer questions but if you have central AC, then you will just change that breaker size as appropriate to service the heat pump. Twin or tandem breakers are an option but not for your kiln you will use it to free up open adjacent locations for the heat pump. A lot has been said about their use and this is likely a good option. Just to add a bit on tandem breakers and panels, old panels take older style tandem breakers or “universal” and the panels are generally marked by the manufacture with the permissible number of openings that can be added this way. The model # will often be something like: “XXX 30/40 XXX” which generally means 30 openings, 40 are the max. New panels that are marked “CTL” take compatible tandem breakers ONLY in locations of the panel that allow this breaker. Generally you can’t use a universal tandem for CTL panels. A good electrician is nearly a must so this gets done right. Your kiln cannot be on a tandem breaker in any way, it is considered a continuous load and will excessively heat the double breaker. Some suggestions / tidbits - when they size your heat pump, make them do an accurate manual J load analysis on your home and give it to you as proof of sizing. (A blower door analysis is a plus to determine infiltration if they can do it) Additionally your climate is a bit milder than I am used to, but cold climate performance heat pumps guarantee their rated output down to -5 or lower. It’s nice to have that performance available when needed and it appears you can have occasional overnight occurrences of this. In general they make heat about 300% - 400% (COP ~3-4) more efficiently than plain old resistance heaters at your typical outdoor air temperatures. The outdoor units do condense and defrost, so placing them where the water can drain away from sidewalks etc… important to not have any icing issue with foot traffic. Edited February 13, 2023 by Bill Kielb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted February 13, 2023 Report Share Posted February 13, 2023 (edited) I put in two heat pumps in past few years. Most run on 220v and require a double slot. They do not use much power (low amps) as to being very efficient .We do have a small haet pump in master bedroom that is a single slot 110v unit. They vary depending on size of space ny most are 220V Most 100 amp main breaker boxes are 12-16 slots depending on brand and age. Lots will depend on your actual house loads (what you really are using amp wise) I suggest a good electrican for the job. Edited February 22, 2023 by Mark C. Hulk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted February 21, 2023 Report Share Posted February 21, 2023 (edited) Thought I would add here re: tandem breakers. Just was out looking at some old 1970 panel installs and came across a panel that detailed in the diagram how many and where the tandem breakers could go. The answer for this panel - no more than 4 allowed and they need to be at the bottom of the panel. This is a 20 opening panel that can expand to 24 using tandem breakers. This is actually sort of common as manufactures try and place them in a spot with the most cooling (the bottom). In theory they could generate double the heat of a single breaker. Edited February 21, 2023 by Bill Kielb Hulk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hulk Posted February 22, 2023 Report Share Posted February 22, 2023 Good point - depends on the panel. The upgrade we did is like the circled in blue, where the darkened in locations can be filled with the twins or single. Some panels, not an option, some can be filled top to bottom with twins or singles... Bill Kielb 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted February 22, 2023 Report Share Posted February 22, 2023 Panels very alot and the brands as well. This is where an electrician is needed in many cases. I outgrew a 100 panel in 1986 and went 200amps-looking back a 250 or 275 amp planel would have been a better choice. My studio feed is 90s amps and since my electric is only 48 amps that still fine. With a well (30amp) and two heat pumps (and another soon) 2 feezers (one for bait) and a solar system and another 100 amp outbuilding it gets complicated fast. Soon will need a 30 amp van outlet as well in parking area. When upsizing you should always plan to jump up more than you think Hulk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hulk Posted February 22, 2023 Report Share Posted February 22, 2023 Plan to jump up, aye that! We're shopping for a new home this last several weeks; insufficient power* has been a rather significant point against some of them... A few work lives ago we specified four pair of fiber optic for a production line upgrade**. "Four, are you ...kidding me, why?" "We need one pair now, one to back up that one for when you guys break it." "And?" "And the data reqs always go up, never down. The third line is for that day when it may be needed, and the fourth line is its backup." They put in three. One is for sure broken, which leaves one spare (...twenty years ago). Told you, din' I? ,) *Where I'm looking for a 60 amp circuit for my new kiln and whatever will be required for my Studio's heat pump, then add lighting, and 110v outlets. A 100 amp subpanel isn't always sufficient, and as a main panel, it just isn't enough for our needs. **from the old "thinlan" which was somewhat slow and required frequent repair. Pres and Bill Kielb 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted February 22, 2023 Report Share Posted February 22, 2023 Tom find the house of your dreams and just have the service upgraded as part of the sale-or just after the sale. I cannot wrap around moving as I'm two months away from living in same place for 50 years That's also 50 years of improvements dialing it in for aging in place. 200 amps is the norm now for most homes and for me thats a bare minimum . Bill Kielb, Hulk and Pres 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pres Posted February 22, 2023 Report Share Posted February 22, 2023 I have two separate systems one for garage and one for the house. It is amazing how much the new lighting in the house has taken load off of the service. Wouldn't have thought. We also found the renovation of the kitchen dropped load quite a bit also. Crazy. . . but then the hot water heater is gas as is the furnace. In the shop, the circuit for the heat is at the bottom of the box, and kiln is on breakers above. The heater runs when I am working at night on low, then during the day to comfort level. Without the heat on at night the brick absorbs cold enough that it is impossible to get to comfort until later in the day. best, Pres Bill Kielb 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted February 22, 2023 Report Share Posted February 22, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, Hulk said: *Where I'm looking for a 60 amp circuit for my new kiln and whatever will be required for my Studio's heat pump, then add lighting, and 110v outlets. A 100 amp subpanel isn't always sufficient, and as a main panel, it just isn't enough for our needs. Yes, full electrification means removing all natural gas and still being able to heat, cool, cook, hot water, dry your clothes and not cost more than the combined prior gas and electric. So, the most common single family upgrade is 200 amps residential. We do add 15kw supplemental heat though (like a large kiln), just in case everything fails. That fits ok in 200 amps, not 100 amps though. Larger than that services are limited to commercial or farm use here. Single family generally tops out at 200 amps in the Midwest. I’ve done so many I can recite the kw loads in my sleep. Heat pump Water heater 4.5 kw element, 500 w heat pump , range, up to 10.6kw, heat pump 9.6 kw …….. yikes! I can say the new heat pumps are FAR more efficient than just 2-3 years ago. PS. Don’t forget the copper tracer to go along with the fiber so it can be found when it’s broken. Edited February 22, 2023 by Bill Kielb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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