Thermal-Light Shelves

[Pyewackette]

@Mark C. @LeeU and @anybody else who has Advancers or the Thermal-Lites from Bailey -

I have an Equad Pro eQ2827-3 on its way.  Yup. I bought a ginormous kiln instead of the little one I originally planned on.  I still hope to eventually get the little one (I have uses for it) but due to apparent electrical weirdness of this house and others nearby apparently due to builder cutting corners and outright not meeting code, I no longer trust the wiring in the walls (I was going to use an existing dryer plug for the little kiln) so I went with the big 'un, given I have to wire something in new to be sure its safe.  At least until I have the existing wiring checked by a professional.  Anyway.

That kiln takes a shelf with a diameter of 25.5" if I am reading the diagrams correctly.  But both the Thermal-Lites and the Advancers come in 26".  Close enough?

The Thermal-Lites are almost $100 per shelf cheaper.  Is there a clear difference between the 2 brands?  Mark C, I've seen a post from you about getting some of these Thermal Lites but I couldn't find a follow up post.  If you were buying new shelves, would you still have so many Advancers or would you go with the Thermal-Lites now?

Lee U., how are you liking your shelves so far?

Anybody else using these or similar shelves?  These are the only 2 I've found enough info on to be relatively certain they won't end up warping at the drop of a hat.

How many shelves should I be buying?  I also wonder now if I got enough kiln furniture LOL!

I guess I will have to have a cutoff switch installed - I had planned on that anyway - so I can be sure power is cut off to the kiln when moving shelves in or out as I don't want to electrocute myself.  Where I live is pretty dry so - I don't think I'll have problems with the shelves getting wet or damp due to humidity.  They will be stored up off the floor in my garage (which is also where the kiln is going, sadly).

I read the Advancer blurb about not firing at more than 275F per hour "up to 1000F".  Does that mean I need custom firing schedules?  I assume cooling would need to be similarly slow though they don't specifically say (that I can find).  Bailey also makes a comment about not fast firing or "crash cooling" but they don't go into detail.  How will this change usual firing schedules? How may this effectively limit the capabilities/usage of the kiln?

Wow.  I am really getting a kiln after all these years.

Edited May 21, 2022 by Pyewackette

[LeeU]

I am not a production potter nor do I generate much volume---so I my experience w/the shelves is as a clay artist of limited output. I have a 4.4 CF L&L 23-S EZ fire, in terms of the space I need to fill  for each fire. I also need the shorter kiln depth in order to get my work onto the bottom layer without straining (I'm 5.4). The standard heavy-heavy-did I mention heavy? and awkward, and nasty to clean regular shelves were a nightmare, especially as my body began to lose strength to aging, despite best efforts to keep up strength training, chiropractic, and mood adjustments to not get too bummed out when I dropped one, again, on my foot. I absolutely love the Thermal-Lites. Worth every penny-made my life instantly 1000 % better for ease of use & less burden on the back, wrists, maintenance etc. Easy to store & a breeze to clean if ever needed. They will outlast me, no doubt about it.

[Pyewackette]

@LeeU I am 5'2" (still, apparently shrinkage is yet in my future, or else I've been wrong about my height all these years).  I still got the 3 level kiln.  I'm used to being short by now LOL!  But no, I was not looking forward to heavy kiln shelves either.  The weight in and of itself was perhaps not QUITE enough to sway me towards these, but the advantages of the relative imperviousness in the face of glazing accidents certainly tipped the balance.  Now that I'm improving physically and I'm stronger, the weight alone is still not the deciding factor but - oddly enough, perhaps due to 20 years of being almost totally sessile - somehow I appreciate the lighter weight even more.  Even though I am once again boggling the minds of young men in feed stores as I stride off with a 50 lb bag of something slung over my shoulder.  But my lower back muscles are not what they once were, before I was brought low.  ALL my muscles are pretty much noodles now. 

I was sadly confiding in my son the other day (I've been landscaping his yard for him, in tandem with landscaping my own yard as well) that here I am up and about and active as the day is long (literally) and I've gained weight.  He looked at me incredulously and said, "Mom.  You know this.  It's MUSCLE coming back."

It is really starting to sink in on me how big this kiln is going to be.  I've got to get busy so I can fill it up!  But first I need the shelves.  I just don't know how many I should get. I'm thinking all full shelves - because I'm cheap and the 2 half shelves cost a lot more than one full shelf.  But how many?  And how much extra furniture?

Edited May 23, 2022 by Pyewackette

[Mark C.]

The Bailey shelves (thermo lites) are just the same as Advancers in every way. The 12x24s have more rounded corners and thats about the only difference .

I would buy either brand whatever is cheapest (check the freight and packing charges) The packing charges are spendy so reasearch those  as well with both sellers.

I do not use these in an electric so size wise you will need room for fingers. I would also get some 1/2 shelves so your stack will be more efficient as well a few whole shelves. 

The Baileys after a zillion fires held up just as well as advancers

.On a side note I am buying 16 new adavancers (soem used 5 times) 12 x 24s tommorrow for 100$ each  from a potter selling out.Maybe some hard brick as well.

[Pyewackette]

@Mark C. Thanks.  I had not thought of differing costs of shipping and handling/packaging.  The Baileys are almost $100 cheaper pre shelf - it had not occurred to me that the shipping etc might more than make up for the difference in absolute price.  I'll check this coming week.

[Mark C.]

These Shelves cost a bunch to pack and ship-so plan on that as well

[fergusonjeff]

No kidding on expensive.  Building a gas kiln and need ~15 12x24 shelves.  With shipping they are almost $3000 each.  I am building the 20 cu.ft. for less than that. 

[Mark C.]

If  you look around for some time you can find them used. I have bought new ones long ago at $110 each for 12x 24. and used ones at least 3 times for about the same $. 1st batch was in CM ad,second batch was E,bay if I recall,3rd batch was Craigs list.

In fact this am I'm off to pick up 16  12 x24s that have 5 fires on them for 100$ each. (cash sale)

One just needs to be diligent. I have yet to see electric shelves used come up. The 12x 24 is the most standard kiln shelve size so thats what you find the most

[Mark C.]

Now I'm swimming in advancers after picking up another 16 12x24. I. offered a friend some as the price was right. I have enough to replace a load that tumbles in an earthquake which has happened twice before back in the 80s/90s. in car kiln. 

[fergusonjeff]

Mark,

If you get stuck needing a home for more please let me know.  I'd happily pay $100 each.  I have looked for years and have never found any used.  I did once get some seconds (never could tell what was wrong) for my electric kiln.

I realized my previous post listed them at $3000 each.  Obviously a typo.  They are actually $270 each after shipping, but without tax.

Jeff

[Pyewackette]

@fergusonjeff That's a relief.  At $3k each it would have paid me to drive there and pick them up LOL!  The size I need are $388 each at Bailey's or $470 each for the Advancers (not counting shipping).  $2600ish for shipping per each did sound frighteningly  high LOL!

Does the requirement not to heat them up to fast mean I can't use the preset firing programs?

Edited June 1, 2022 by Pyewackette

[LeeU]

Not sure what is meant by heating up "too" fast, but with my L&L EZ fire, I can use all the preset settings w/no problem. I'd check w/a Baily tech and/or your kiln-maker's tech for direct feedback.

[fergusonjeff]

I think uneven heating is the issue, which is why I don't use them in my wood kiln.  I have a few 26" half-rounds that I use in my electric kiln up to cone 6, and use the fast glaze fire setting all the time.  No problems. 

The advancers solved all my warped plate issues.  I make some slab plates and bisque on edge.  They warp quite a bit, but come out dead flat after the glaze fire on the advancers.

[Mark C.]

Advancers can heat fast just not uneven. So no Quik cools like The Crooked Lawyer likes to do. If you have to open a hot kiln to peak than these are not your shelves. 

You need to store them dry as well (not on concrete put some wood under them) )no water on them and if you do get them wet dry them slowy in a slow bisque cycle.

I have tested them and know the limits. I have some broken ones as well and know what they like and what they do not. I embraced them in the 90s and never looked back. When I bought my  1st 10 they where $100 each plus shipping- slowly they have gone up in price.

They also do like pulling a damper to fast cool a downdraft as my friends loved to do-they lost many shelves doing this.

I knew a potter who hosed them down and fire them is a glaze fire which blew them upo and ruined the whole load. So they do not like bone headed users  as well.

If you are a normal potter who thinks first about stuff  than these will outlast you. I must have 70 or more by now and they are the shelve of choice for me in all my gas kilns (not in salt kiln)

 

[Pyewackette]

@LeeU @Mark C. 

From the Adancer FAQ pages:

Quote

Slow firing programs for bisque and glaze are recommended with larger shelves. For custom programs we do not recommend exceeding 275F per hour up to 1000F. Avoid positioning the shelf directly in line with element channels. Significant thermal gradients across the surface of thin, low mass kiln shelves can result in thermal shock failure due to uneven heating.

There are similar statements for the Bailey Thermal-Lites.  I don't know what "fast heating" is relative to "normal heating" in a kiln, but apparently ramping up more than 275 dF per hour is too fast.

I don't know what the preset programs are for L&L kilns, I haven't found anywhere that calls that out yet.  The programs must be described in a manual somewhere.

Where I live there is little to no humidity most of the year.  Shelves when not in use will be stored on, well, other shelves LOL!  At any rate not on the floor. Ok to store them flat or should they go on edge?

There's no way I will be lifting the kiln lid to peek or anything else along those lines.  I have no problem whatsoever waiting for the kiln to cool off naturally.  I will have a kiln vent and a kiln controller ala the version sold by L&L.

I'm not exactly sure what "pulling a damper too fast cool a downdraft" entails, but it doesn't sound like something I'd be likely to do.  It doesn't sound like something that is a normal part of waiting for your kiln to cool naturally.

I'm good with doing what the manual says to do.  The kiln I ordered is an L&L Quad Pro which probably uses the same programs as an EZ Fire.  I've had my hands full recently landscaping my son's yard as well as my own, I need to sit down and find the operating manual and start reading it for this kiln. 

Thanks.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Pyewackette

[Bill Kielb]

@Pyewackette Bartlett control schedules below. Most kilns use their control and rebrand it. All the cone fire glaze schedules have segments faster than 275 degrees per hour. Honestly though I have used the knock offs and advancers in the gas kilns and always had segments as high as 550 degrees per hour during mid fire.. Never had a thermal shock issue from simply firing, also never crash cooled the kiln or opened it early though.

BTW I used to store the shelves neatly in a vertical rack and no issue. They did rest on wood slats though not directly on the floor

Edited June 2, 2022 by Bill Kielb

[Mark C.]

I never store shelves flat I store ,My 12x24 on the 12 inch side down leaning against the kiln at a slant 35-40 of them per pile

My electric kiln shelves I also store on edge the longest edge down (3 sided shelves)

I know of no one who fired these to fast and cracked them.

The last trouble spot which I did not mention as it only appies to larger gas kilns (not electrics so much as they are not tall enough)

If the contact points are to small or uneven and the load is say 5 feet tall. (say you are shimming with a broken shelve on the three posts) and its got a sharp high spot on it) then that downward preasure can cause a crack under a huge load. I have seen this  in large gas kilns but never in electrics  as the loads are small and short,

Edited June 4, 2022 by Mark C.