nafeeza Posted April 18, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2020 I bought the kiln brand new from a company, I just bought it at a discounted price. The power cord was left the same and it’s also on its own circuit. I bought the ohm meter from amazon so I’m just waiting for it to come. I can’t really get anyone out here right now (New York is on lockdown til May 15th). I did look at a lot of videos on YouTube about how to check things so I’ll try my best to test and check things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted April 18, 2020 Report Share Posted April 18, 2020 9 minutes ago, nafeeza said: I bought the kiln brand new from a company, I just bought it at a discounted price. The power cord was left the same and it’s also on its own circuit. I bought the ohm meter from amazon so I’m just waiting for it to come. I can’t really get anyone out here right now (New York is on lockdown til May 15th). I did look at a lot of videos on YouTube about how to check things so I’ll try my best to test and check things. Never bad to check, as I said probably best to be safe. If and when you open things up, take some pictures and post the present condition of the connections inside. If you go back to the @Brandon Franks post I cited, I think it allowed for discovery and perhaps some knowledge for future maintenance. Stay safe, and good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick White Posted April 18, 2020 Report Share Posted April 18, 2020 ok, late to the party as usual... I have that exact same kiln as my test kiln and for infrequent small one-offs I need quickly. In my experience, the original factory elements (I bought mine new) started throwing the FTL code for cone 6 firings much sooner in its life than I expected. I could do some lower firings without error, but the FTL was consistent at cone 6. I measured the resistance and it was barely more than 10% over, the usual recommended trigger point for routine maintenance replacements, though in other kilns I have pushed them to 14 or 15% before they are totally useless. So this surprised me a bit, both because the early demise and the narrow window to failure. I ordered new elements from Paragon, but didn't get them installed right away. Then I read that Bartlett has developed a version of their Genesis touchscreen controller that is a direct replacement for the 3-button Orton Sentry controllers. I ordered one of those and installed both new elements and controller a few months ago. I don't have enough firings on this set of elements or the new controller to know yet if I will see the same early crapout. So, I can't say if there was a design weakness in the elements, or a design weakness in the Orton controller that it will give up sooner when firings slow down (compared to a Bartlett) or what. But I will say that what you are seeing is consistent with my experience with that kiln model. dw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted April 18, 2020 Report Share Posted April 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Dick White said: ok, late to the party as usual... I have that exact same kiln as my test kiln and for infrequent small one-offs I need quickly. In my experience, the original factory elements (I bought mine new) started throwing the FTL code for cone 6 firings much sooner in its life than I expected. I could do some lower firings without error, but the FTL was consistent at cone 6. I measured the resistance and it was barely more than 10% over, the usual recommended trigger point for routine maintenance replacements, though in other kilns I have pushed them to 14 or 15% before they are totally useless. So this surprised me a bit, both because the early demise and the narrow window to failure. I ordered new elements from Paragon, but didn't get them installed right away. Then I read that Bartlett has developed a version of their Genesis touchscreen controller that is a direct replacement for the 3-button Orton Sentry controllers. I ordered one of those and installed both new elements and controller a few months ago. I don't have enough firings on this set of elements or the new controller to know yet if I will see the same early crapout. So, I can't say if there was a design weakness in the elements, or a design weakness in the Orton controller that it will give up sooner when firings slow down (compared to a Bartlett) or what. But I will say that what you are seeing is consistent with my experience with that kiln model. dw Sounds like 10% is it for this style kiln. Realistically I don’t know the answer but if I compare wattage and interior size this kiln is identical to several. Most test kilns this size and wattage can do a fast glaze in 4 hours, so very fast. which would indicate for this size that’s plenty of wattage. With your genesis controller you could dial back the relay cycle time from its default of 14 seconds to 10 seconds if your firings start to drag out far beyond their program. We have done that to get a few more firings out of worn out sets while waiting for new. Your observation is super interesting to me in that I would be tempted to measure these elements new and if just above 13 ohms trim them back to no less than 12.8 ohms to see if I got more and better firings. It would take some calculating and a torch on a brand new element to do that. Definitely not for the inexperienced. This has such a tight operating window because of the 120v restriction that if new they come much above 13 ohms your operating life can be reduced substantially. Consider this, a reduction in voltage of 5% from the assumed design 120v wipes out about half your useful life as well. An interesting issue that definitely would take some analysis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted April 19, 2020 Report Share Posted April 19, 2020 It is a cone 8 kiln, so the element life will not be the same as a cone 10 kiln. But you should still get 60-70 firings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nafeeza Posted April 19, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2020 I think overall I’ve come to the conclusion of investing in a better kiln, one that’s a little bigger and should last longer. All of the advice has been great and I appreciate it so much but this kiln seems to be problematic from the start. I just don’t have the knowledge or the resources to properly fix it and even if I did idk if it would be worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted April 19, 2020 Report Share Posted April 19, 2020 2 hours ago, nafeeza said: I think overall I’ve come to the conclusion of investing in a better kiln, one that’s a little bigger and should last longer. All of the advice has been great and I appreciate it so much but this kiln seems to be problematic from the start. I just don’t have the knowledge or the resources to properly fix it and even if I did idk if it would be worth it. I really like those small kilns for testing and small wares and the speed I can fire them but I understand your frustration. Big kilns require maintenance plus additional electric and more energy per fire so they have issues as well. This is old and obsolete so maybe time to upgrade but the useful life of a kiln generally spans several decades with maintenance and many folks buy used for the savings. It would be most helpful if you knew someone comfortable maintaining then at least you could watch and learn some of the basics for whatever kiln you end up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nafeeza Posted April 24, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2020 On 4/15/2020 at 2:22 PM, Bill Kielb said: I believe it’s likely your elements and or could be made worse by a marginal connection and relay. If you have someone that can measure them, they need to be 13.1 ohms. If they are in the 14-15 ohm range they are worn and need to be replaced. If any connection to the elements and relay are worn due to heat it will also take away precious power from you firing. To squeeze a few more firings out of these That are worn we typically slow down the top segment of the firing as the criteria is if the kiln has not increased by 27 degrees in an hour and the segment has run for at least four hours. So you might get a couple firings with a 60 degree per hour top segment setting. At this point you have little power to spare so checking the elements is the thing to do for sure. We still don’t know if they all glow actually so I would encourage that first. Program a single segment firing to 500 degrees at 999 speed and see if top and bottom glow. If you are comfortable with removing power and opening up the control box to provide pictures of the relay connections and element connections we could easily see if they are burnt and worn. I should mention if they are measured as is without removing any wires they should measure about 6.55 ohms because they are parallel connected. If they measure connected this way 7-8 ohms they need to be replaced. Just to add if you measure them with all wires connected and it measure 13 ohms or more, one of them is bad. Hi again guys! I got my ohm meter the other day and just wanted to update you all on what’s been happening. I checked today to see what the relays measure (not sure if that’s the correct term) but I got a reading of 7 each time I checked. @Bill Kielb I know you said if it measured 7 I need to replace it. So I will be looking into that. i also wanted to ask you guys for your opinion on Olympic kilns. I found a good deal on that brand and I see a lot of good reviews about the medallion series. Does anyone have any experience with those? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted April 25, 2020 Report Share Posted April 25, 2020 4 hours ago, nafeeza said: @Bill Kielb I know you said if it measured 7 I need to replace it. So I will be looking into that. i also wanted to ask you guys for your opinion on Olympic kilns. I found a good deal on that brand and I see a lot of good reviews about the medallion series. Does anyone have any experience with those? Yes 7 ohms is the end of their life. This kiln does not seem to have a bunch of power to spare to begin with being cone 8. The olympic you mentioned looks nice and is a 3” brick kiln. I am not a fan of kilns that stop their shell banding and leave a gap at the sections but there are many built this way. It’s interesting that the premise is eco /green so they are built with 3” brick. I am a big fan of the Bailey or Cone arts because they use insulation and 2-1/2” brick which ends up more eco friendly than 3” brick. Depending upon model Bailey / Cone Art have a lid lifter that is the best I have seen and the entire kiln is always wrapped in stainless, top to bottom, no gaps. That being said, it’s a just personal preference and the Olympic looks like a very nice kiln. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nafeeza Posted April 25, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2020 43 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said: Yes 7 ohms is the end of their life. This kiln does not seem to have a bunch of power to spare to begin with being cone 8. The olympic you mentioned looks nice and is a 3” brick kiln. I am not a fan of kilns that stop their shell banding and leave a gap at the sections but there are many built this way. It’s interesting that the premise is eco /green so they are built with 3” brick. I am a big fan of the Bailey or Cone arts because they use insulation and 2-1/2” brick which ends up more eco friendly than 3” brick. Depending upon model Bailey / Cone Art have a lid lifter that is the best I have seen and the entire kiln is always wrapped in stainless, top to bottom, no gaps. That being said, it’s a just personal preference and the Olympic looks like a very nice kiln. Do you think it’s even worth it to replace it? On the paragon kiln Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted April 25, 2020 Report Share Posted April 25, 2020 7 hours ago, nafeeza said: Do you think it’s even worth it to replace it? On the paragon kiln Well, just my opinion but ...... I would not resell it without fixing it so in my opinion I would replace them and fire a few times to be sure then decide. Just me though, others might view this differently. It is a cone 8 kiln, so for cone six it is always going to be marginally powered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nafeeza Posted April 25, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2020 48 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said: Well, just my opinion but ...... I would not resell it without fixing it so in my opinion I would replace them and fire a few times to be sure then decide. Just me though, others might view this differently. It is a cone 8 kiln, so for cone six it is always going to be marginally powered. No I agree with you. So just to make sure i got this right, I would be replacing the relay box? The little black box that all the wires are connected to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted April 25, 2020 Report Share Posted April 25, 2020 5 hours ago, nafeeza said: No I agree with you. So just to make sure i got this right, I would be replacing the relay box? The little black box that all the wires are connected to? We don’t know about the relay but we know the elements are worn so you would be replacing the elements for sure. Google kiln element replacement video to get an idea. You have a single relay in this kiln that cycles the elements on and off. Since the elements are worn I would replace the relay as well, just because it is likely as worn as the elements. Relays usually last longer than the elements but as long as I was doing things, for me two new elements and a relay would be my method. Then I would test fire and decide. if selling, the new user would know it’s pretty much rebuilt for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nafeeza Posted April 25, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2020 Oh man. I was so confident in switching the relay but the elements are a different story okay I’ll order the parts today and try my best. I’ll let you know when and if it was successful! Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick White Posted April 25, 2020 Report Share Posted April 25, 2020 Replacing the elements in that kiln is not very complicated. It's small so it's easy to get inside and manipulate things, and the grooves in Paragon kilns are deep enough that you don't need to fiddle with pins at every corner. The connection between the power wire(s) and the tails of the elements is simultaneously easy and tricky. They are brass screw-in-the-bolt connectors, not crimps, so you don't need any special tools other than pliers and a small socket wrench. When reassembling it with the wires through the hole in the connector, be sure to tighten the bolt as tight as you can. Hold the connector firmly with pliers and torque on that bolt with the socket wrench to be sure it is good and tight. The relay is easy too. Two screws hold it in place, so take those out first before pulling any wires off. Then swap the wires one at a time to the exact same place on the new relay, and when all the wires are swapped, drop the old relay and remount the new relay. This one is easy to work on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted April 25, 2020 Report Share Posted April 25, 2020 1 hour ago, nafeeza said: Oh man. I was so confident in switching the relay but the elements are a different story okay I’ll order the parts today and try my best. I’ll let you know when and if it was successful! Thanks again! Here is link to an old Paragon element change video Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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