SEDONA ARTS FESTIVAL

[Red Rocks]

My objective in this post is two-fold.  I am on the board of the 29th Annual Sedona Arts Festival and we are looking to expand our reach in terms of recruiting artists on a national basis.  So my first goal is to reach out to everyone here to learn how you source the festivals that you participate in?  We currently use ZAPP for recruiting and application management and are looking for other sources that potter's here use regularly and find successful.  to reach out to all the potter's on t

Secondly, I wanted to extend an invitation to the folks here to take a look at the Festival and to apply if you are interested.  Below, is a brief description of this venerable festival:

The festival itself has grown in size and reputation over the past 28 years. It is set in a valley surrounded by the majestic red rocks of Sedona. It has become a destination arts festival, known for the quality of art and first-class treatment of both its artists and attendees. With nationally known artists displaying their work surrounded by red rock splendor, there is no better place to spend an October weekend than Sedona.  For more information, please go to:

https://sedonaartsfestival.org/

[Mark C.]

Zapp reaches the entire nation so looking for more applications really is a moot point. Most who use Zapp get folks applying from all over the country .

(I personally do not like Zapp)The reason I do not like it is . Slowly it diffuses the show with artists who will have poor shows and never return(one timers). Then as time goes by the show is changed  by the artists who are successful and are displaced by the one timers whio live 2500 miles away and push the button on Zapp.I have seen this change shows and really its never for the good of the public who the show is for and the local artist whi has done the show for decades and is supported at the show-the upside is for the organization (like yours) they (you) get more money form the throngs on Zapp applying.

This is the down side to giving up on juring the show yourselves. Hey how do I know this-well 45 years of doing show is a good start as welklas being on a board of a local show which is in its 46year.We decied long ago to keep our own jury and be aggresive about chashing out imports and giving local artists a little edge over far away artists (you still need some for far away)We want a sustainable show that works for the artist and the public.We try hard to get a good fit. We whole never let someone drive from Florida to do our show-they would only do it once so whats the point?

I know a few of your past vendors after looking at past festivals on your web site. Since you charge a gate fee whats your attendance number for a show weekend??I could not find any of that info on your site ?

[hitchmss]

I agree with Mark; you want quality, over quantity. There are plenty of shows which have hundreds of mediocre artists, at a show which was at one time filled with impeccable work.

I wouldnt try to increase the number of applicants, just get the right applicants. Word gets around about good shows, and thats what you want. I would work more on your marketing of the show; both in regards to showing potential artists what your show has to offer, and to the public, that you have great art available.

Zapp is great for organizations to make a lot of money on application fees, but I dislike it for similar reasons as to what Mark says. Instead of getting 100 applications for 50 spots, you now get 1000 applications for those same spots, and then you can only spend 2 seconds looking at each image, and IMO good artists get passed over for artists that have catchy images. Zapp IMO is all about having good/catchy/fancy images, and better artists can be overlooked if their images arent as catchy.

I also wont even consider applying to a show who has "extended their application deadline". This is just a ploy to make more money, and it tells me exactly what the show is about. (Not that this is what you're doing, by no means, but just a general statement about Zapp).

For me, when Im looking for shows that Im interested in doing, Zapp is the LAST place I look for info. First is from my show circuit friends. Second I research shows on different online sources like Art Fair Sourcebook, and Art Fair insider. If I find good info online, but nothing from a real person, I will look at past artists from the specific show, and ask them what their opinions are about the show.

I like shows that have a rotating "acceptance"; once you're juried in, you're automatically in for the next 3-5 years. This for me provides a sense of security in knowing that I can be back at this show for the next 3-5 years if i like it, and for the show, it provides a rotating amount of new/different artists. Some patrons get bored when its the same 50 artists every year (maybe this is what you're trying to avoid?). If I reach my 3-5 year limit, and go back into the jury process, hopefully my work will still stand in comparison to others, but for you as the show, means you if you dont have any "better" artists to invite, at least you would have "me" to re-accept. If I do the show and dont like it, then I wont be back: simple as that.

Im from Ohio, and dont do shows in the west yet, so I cant say that Ive heard of your show, but that doesnt mean its not getting talked about. Being almost 30 years young, I would imagine your show, if its good for artists, has a reputation among artists. Bolster this reputation and you wont need to go to Zapp; it cheapens the whole process.

[neilestrick]

I have no problem with ZAPP, Juried Art Services, or any other online application system. It's the simplest, quickest way for me to find shows. I don't think any shows should still be having people send in printed photos or images on CDs, or having people send in paper applications with 2 checks, or even emailing images. It's 2019 for goodness sakes! There are so many simple ways to get people's images and money. I do a few shows that use Entry Thingy embedded in their web site, and that works fine, but you still have to do some searching to find the show.

ZAPP does not do the jurying. It is simply a way for shows to receive, organize, and view applications. If shows are letting in artists who don't have quality work, that is the fault of the show for not doing a good job with the jurying. ZAPP is just a tool, nothing more.

I don't blindly apply to shows just because I saw them listed there. I still do research and find out about the shows from online review sites or other artists I know. If I pick a show and I don't do well, I don't blame ZAPP.

Most artists have an area that they're willing to travel within to do shows. ZAPP and similar sites make it a lot easier to find shows within my accepted radius. Just because I can now easily find shows in California  doesn't mean I'm going to do them. There will always be people who try and show for the first time and them don't come back, whether they found it on ZAPP or not. That's part of the game. I tried 4 new shows last year, and won't be going back to 3 of them.

Shows need new artists. One of the biggest complaints I hear from customers is that a show has mostly the same artists every year and there isn't anything new to look at. No artist should expect to do a show every year for a decade or more. It's not good for the show. It's disappointing for the artist, but it means the show is more likely to have good attendance next time you get in. I do like the idea of automatic entry for 3 years. It provides a lot of stability for the artist, but still allows the show to stay current. I think the most important thing for a show is to get fresh new work in every year.

[Callie Beller Diesel]

Well, I don't live in the US, and jury fees outside of fine art/non-profit situations aren't really a thing here, but applying online is the only way to go. I think some things cross borders just fine. 

I have to agree that your reputation as a show organizer is pretty critical when trying to attract good, professional vendors.  From an artist's perspective, choosing which shows you'll do as an artist can involve some trial and error, there are things that we do to mitigate some of the risk in terms of vetting the shows we sign up for. I am a business owner and a professional, and if I'm doing all my due diligence in regards to my own responsibilities to a show, I expect that the organizers I work with to also behave just as professionally. This covers a lot of things, including how well you market the show, showing a good awareness of current industry trends and tools, clear and timely communication, how you manage emergencies and logistics, how well you curate your selection of vendors, and how well you create an environment that both shoppers and vendors want to return to and spend money at. All of these things if handled correctly increase my chances of having a good payday. The organizers who tick all the above boxes will get my applications first. My craft is time consuming: I can't afford to travel any distance to work with a show with a less than impeccable reputation.

My usual sources for shows is social media and gossip. Which sounds like I've just totally contradicted myself about the professionalism when stated that way, but if I'm working with you, I want to interview you and check your references.I go about that by speaking with other vendors you've worked with and by looking at your overall online presence, just like anyone else looking for a professional working arrangement. The farther away the show is, the more I'm going to do this.

I think if you're in a position of having to refresh your current roster of artists, you need to be able to set everyone up to succeed to the best of your ability. Some of the organizers of the more expensive shows that I do will have a small section of booths that have a discounted rate or special (smaller) size for first time vendors at the show or emerging artists. This can inject fresh blood into a show, and gives new folks a chance to test the market for themselves without breaking the bank. This ensures that there's always some new things to look at as well as old favourites, and the new artists that are successful can go on to order a larger booth next year.

[Mark C.]

I never implied Zapp does the juring-its a photo uploadtarcking system .( I did two Zapp shows forever) both I was invited to and did not have to fully compete in the juring.

I think to may shows get lazy and go for the most jury money thay can with systems like Zapp. I have seen shows change for the worse -but thats just the jurys fault really.

If you do the bottom to top juring yourselves its just a better deal. Yes it is harder.I still do show s where small photos are used(you can print them on your printer easy)

Its easy to get new artistes to infuze intyo a show-its all up to the jury. In our local fair we are now asking for price points so that if you say have bronze sculptures that sell from 10k to 35 k we know thats a poor fit and you will not be happy in our show so you are out.Its another takes more time but better for everyone deal.Remember I'm only on the board not a jury person-but I vote on overall jusry ideas not specific folks.

As to finding good shows its always from word of mouth form folks I know-thats the best way. In fact I called a vfriend(a potter) to ask about the Sedona Art fest yesterday.

I am not intrested myself but wanted to follow thru for the OP.

He said the show has improverd over the years and has bettter quality artists than in the past -He has never done it but knows others who have in the past. It came back as a mixed review overall. Getting better was the highlite.

[neilestrick]

I don't think they're lazy for wanting to use ZAPP or other online services. It's a lot of work to organize and jury a show. It requires a lot of people and a lot of hours. Anything they can do to save money can help keep booth costs from going up. And if they get more jury money, more power to them. I pay the same fee regardless of how many people apply.

Susan Harris was NCECA exhibitions director in the mid 90's. She lived in Logan, Utah, where I was in grad school. Every year she would hire half a dozen of us grad students to spend an entire afternoon organizing applications and getting all the slides ready for the jury to view, and the 3 jurors had to be flown in for a weekend to do the jurying. That's a lot of man-hours and expense. With an online services she could have handled all the organization by herself, and the jurying could have been done over a conference call. It would have saved thousands of dollars, which could have gone towards NCECA scholarships.

[Mark C.]

I do know about the online zapp juring as I have be around the doing it for a show(out of state show)-now i just say no to those requests as it sucks up to much time.With Zapp or any jury it takes days to toggle thru just the ceramics category-its more time consuming I feel with Zapp as there are more artists per catagory to look at.It takes about 2 days just for ceramics with 5 images per person and hundreds of applications 

[Red Rocks]

Wow!  A lot of great and thoughtful responses to this topic.  Here is some feedback from Sedona:

1.  We went to Zapp to streamline the application process.  We still do in-depth jurying of every application  to ensure a high quality show.  Zapp is indeed a photo management system.  Years ago I ran the Tempe Arts Festival - we used to get 5 slides from 1500 artists for 325 booths - now that was time consuming.   

2.  A couple of you indicate do a better job of  marketing ourselves to artists.  Would love to hear any ideas on long these lines.  

3.  Mark asked about number of attendees - it is right around 3,000.  We have a new board made up of artists and business people who are committed to invigorating and expanding the Festival primarily thru more advertising/marketing in the 6 million plus metro Phoenix area.

4.  I really like the idea of a discount to attract new artists and will propose it to the board.

5.  I agree with Neil - you definitely want to bring in new artists and keep them rotating so the look of the show stays fresh.

6.  At least in our case, Zapp has nothing to do with racking up jury fees.  We would charge the same jury fee if we just asked for 5 photos without a system like  Zapp.  Jurying is a break even process we pay a group to jury the applications and another group to jury the show for cash awards.  We pay out what we take in.

Thanks for all your responses - please keep them coming!

[Mark C.]

On 2/1/2019 at 9:54 AM, Red Rocks said:

Wow!  A lot of great and thoughtful responses to this topic.  Here is some feedback from Sedona:

1.  We went to Zapp to streamline the application process.  We still do in-depth jurying of every application  to ensure a high quality show.  Zapp is indeed a photo management system.  Years ago I ran the Tempe Arts Festival - we used to get 5 slides from 1500 artists for 325 booths - now that was time consuming.   

2.  A couple of you indicate do a better job of  marketing ourselves to artists.  Would love to hear any ideas on long these lines.  

3.  Mark asked about number of attendees - it is right around 3,000.  We have a new board made up of artists and business people who are committed to invigorating and expanding the Festival primarily thru more advertising/marketing in the 6 million plus metro Phoenix area.

4.  I really like the idea of a discount to attract new artists and will propose it to the board.

5.  I agree with Neil - you definitely want to bring in new artists and keep them rotating so the look of the show stays fresh.

6.  At least in our case, Zapp has nothing to do with racking up jury fees.  We would charge the same jury fee if we just asked for 5 photos without a system like  Zapp.  Jurying is a break even process we pay a group to jury the applications and another group to jury the show for cash awards.  We pay out what we take in.

Thanks for all your responses - please keep them coming!

I think marketing may be your weak point if the show only has 3,000 attendees .Or the gate fee?

Charging a gate fee may be  one issue that slows growth ( I have rarely done shows that charge a gate fee-I think Gilroy garlic was my only one).If the fee is small it has litlle effect but it seems its never small. Can you run the show without a gate fee?Maybe a bit less paid entertainment ? Maybe a lesser gate fee than 12$ if thats what it is?A show with that length of time  run should be drawing more numbers of the public.Tapping into Phenix metro is a must no matter how you do it it needs to be done better

If you have high quality artists but not enough buyers thats a real problem.The cure is more visitors .

In terms of getting the word out -the best way is thru the artists who have had good experiences there .I'm a little cadid as I know a returning clay artist to this show. I think I may know you as well since I did 44 straight Tempe art shows from 1993 to 2016.

I feel the attendee number is way to low. If you can get more people to come to the show that will help everyones bottom line.

For an artist to travel to do this show and they have to travel as thats a small area and out of the way one needs to make good money and that means a good sized crowd. I would talk to the board on improving attendance as this may be the key point.

I travel to Boulder City not far away  from your location and the show is completly full of junk mixed in with quality things (very poor jury-in fact we all call it jury by check-send in the check you are in)

They get a great turnout from Las Vegas in terms of visitors -no gate fee-that would kill that show.I'm on my last years there as it 1100 miles one way for me. It still  is a solid show for me but its on the decline a bit .When this happens we start to flee like rats on a ship sinking.

We as artists need to be good business folks-we share show info  with one another and thats really the best advertising you can get.

I called my fellow potter who does lots of Az shows to ask about this show for his thoughts.

My self I have done about 4 AZ shows for 25 years but am done with your state in terms of shows as it to far and I'm slowing down the ship.

AZ shows have been very good to me-some better than others for sure.I let my AZ tax permit go in 2017.

On our local show we have the oposite problem -out show in the 45 years has always been to many visitors on Saturday and a slow Sunday so we as a board switched up our most popular Samba parade to Sunday a few years ago and now we have a super strong two day show which spread the crowd out to both days. Its far better for the artists and the town/community as a whole. It increased sales to our artist and to the town as a whole.

One of the things we stress as a board is doing the right thing for everyone- we took on zero waste as the 1st venue in our county to tackle this at a large event-thinking big picture-long term.We have replaced ourselves with younger board members who now are also on the board and hold most postions so show will continue when we are long gone.They bring great new ideas to the table as well.

Good luck with building the show up.

[Red Rocks]

Thanks Mark for taking the time to provide more input.  It is most appreciated.  I love the part of the country you live in and have been thru there a few times.

[Callie Beller Diesel]

I think in terms of trying to "market" to vendors, just make sure your existing ones have a really good experience in terms of being well organized, communicating well, and having the right set of customers coming. Having free breakfast is only a nice touch as long as all the basics are taken care of, and taken care of well.  Few things travel faster than the Speed of Vendor Gossip.

[Red Rocks]

Well Said!

[hitchmss]

On 2/1/2019 at 1:39 PM, Mark C. said:

I feel the attendee number is way to low.

Agreed; As a utilitarian potter (primarily) I am a numbers guy when it comes to sales; I need large volumes of patrons to make large volumes of sales. If those 3k patrons were each spending $800 in a booth, then likely all the artists would be making good money, and if that is the case, then I would continue doing what you're doing. It all depends on what kind of art you are exhibiting, and what kind of experience you want your patrons and artists to have. If its a select exhibition of the nations best 100 craftspeople, then I as an exhibitor would not want 30,000 beer drinking, hot dog eating folks coming through, astonished at my prices; Id rather have the 3,000 folks who came to see good artwork, and are prepared to spend the dollars to own it. For me, Im in the former, but still dont like too much beer and hot dogs; just enough so they are "well lubricated" and not "hangry".

Agree with Callie about the marketing to artists; word of mouth is wonderful here. You might consider providing statistics or data that artists can use when researching your show for viability for them; for me I want to know accurate numbers to attendance, average sales per booth, local hotel costs...things like this.

As far as marketing to the public to increase attendance, I guess a lot of that depends on your budget. A lot of the standard (billboards, radio/news ads, print ads, etc) work great, but Ive also seen some ingenious solutions too. I did a show in Atlanta region, where the director managed to get the local electric company to insert a small slip of paper advertising the show, in with every utility bill in the region the month prior to the show. Dont know how she managed that, but she did. She also went to the local movie theaters, and had a small 30 second video advert played in every theater prior to the show. Good marketing ideas I would have never thought of. Social media can be great too.

The gate fee does eliminate a lot of the "looky loos" who never buy anything, so dismissing this would increase your attendance, but again, it may not be the right move. Maybe "gifting" free gate passes (maybe 1,000) through different avenues (drawings, gift bags, etc. A local gallery here did a marketing campaign here recently that did quite well; numerous ceramic leaves (their logo is a leaf), were made, and had different "gift values" printed on them (25% off, free something, etc), and they were hid in public spaces around town. There was something like 100 of these made, and it was posted heavily on social media; local news picked it up too. It increased a lot of foot traffic to the gallery, and brought in new clientele because there was "free stuff" involved.

[neilestrick]

I'm not a fan of gate fees. I think they help the show organizer make more money, and hurt artist's sales. Looky loos are important. A lot of people come to shows as a way to spend a few hours on a weekend, and a gate fee keeps a lot of them away. If I was going to take my family of 4 somewhere that I had to pay to get in, I wouldn't go to an art fair unless I was looking for something specific. A lot of show visitors don't necessarily intend to buy anything, but often will because they see something they really like. I sell a lot of lower priced items that way, any of the $35 and below items. Looky loos are also a great way to advertise, so maybe they'll hit my web site later, or even sign up for a pottery class at my studio if it's a local show. The more business cards I can give out, the better.

More and more, I see gate fees as proof that the focus is on the organizer making money, not on the artists selling well. High jury fee, high booth fee, and a gate fee? No thanks. I get that organizers need to make money, but it's in their best interest to do everything they can to make sure sales are good. Once word gets out that artists don't do well at a certain show, the quality of applicants will quickly go down.

[Mark C.]

(High jury fee, high booth fee, and a gate fee? No thanks. I get that organizers need to make money, but it's in their best interest to do everything they can to make sure sales are good. Once word gets out that artists don't do well at a certain show, the quality of applicants will quickly go down.)

This is very true. High booth fees and a gate fee are a no go deal for me.

•  

[Stephen]

alright going to toss in my opinion on dropping artist from shows. I guess I just don't see the logic at all. A good artist is a good artist and if they don't keep their booth relevant and fresh then their sales will drop off and they won't be back anyway. Seems really counter productive for a show to drop its talent in search of 'fresh'. It's hard enough for folks to make a living with an art business and with shows arbitrarily dropping local artist it does not surprise me that I hear of so many just swearing off of shows. Mark and GEP, two successful potters on this board, talk of the pluses of returning to their good shows for decades and it really seems absurd for them to be bumped for an arbitrary goal. 

[Callie Beller Diesel]

This is just a question:  Is it a common practice in the US for promoters to drop good local artists in favour of out of town ones? That doesn’t seem smart to me either.

When I was talking about refreshing a vendor roster, I was thinking more of a situation closer to home. A show organizer that has been around for 30 years was experiencing a situation where a lot of their long-term successful vendors were just retiring all at once. There’s always a certain amount of attrition that seems to happen for any number of legitimate reasons that aren’t related to anything the organizer is or isn’t doing, and new vendors are coming in all the time. 

[Mark C.]

 (A show organizer that has been around for 30 years was experiencing a situation where a lot of their long-term successful vendors were just retiring all at once.)

This turnover is happing NOW as many age out of the business. I know of this happening to many potters in past 10 years. 

Seems a good time to move into shows really. it takes a certain type to excel at shows. You must be persistent and not take jury descisions personally.

I also have heard of  and know a few new promoters thinking they need to turn over folks so the public sees new folks in shows-same deal with moving folks around . Its a wacky business model at best. New ideas are not alway good ideas. The public who supports say an favorite artist (and that artist does well at show) and returns to show for them and they are not there  as they where turned away for new blood is ludicrous. The problem is some new show directors believe this is a good idea.Im a bit biased as I have seen it all  in shows and its not a pretty sight.When I hear NEW director its usually a bad idea not far behind.

[neilestrick]

I have had so many customers tell me that they are tired of always seeing the same work at a show, that there's no reason for them to come back because there's never anything new to look at. So yes, it it necessary for a show to have new artists mixed in with the old. Should an artist who's been doing a show for 15 years get bumped? Maybe. It's a jury, not a club. If that year's jurors don't think the work is as good as others, then they should get bumped. I've done many shows where I'm in one year, out the next. That's the game. Marion, IA- one of the best small shows in the country- only lets people in for 1 year at a time, maybe 2 if they're lucky. I make no assumptions when I'm applying to shows, because I know there's a lot of competition out there, and the shows have no obligation to let me in, regardless of my history with them. They have to find a balance between new work and old.

[GEP]

I'm writing this comment from my booth at a high application fee ($50), high booth fee ($1250), high gate fee ($20) show. This is not a greedy practice, in fact it's the opposite. Shows that can do this are not-for-profit and/or fundraisers. This show is produced by volunteers who are not keeping a dollar of the money collected. All the money goes to a good cause. The artists and the patrons know this. People who produce shows like this have figured out that good craft work is very appealing to deep-pocketed philanthropic types. That's who comes to these shows. It's a win-win for everybody.  These are uncommon shows, but most major cities have at least one.

There are also shows produced by non-profit organizations whose mission is to the support the craft industry, such as American Craft Council, and the Pennsylvania Guild of Craftsmen. The staff is salaried or volunteers, and their shows do not need to turn a profit. 

Another format that works is when a local government is producing a show for purposes of tourism marketing, such as State College PA, DelRay VA, and Baltimore's Artscape. The staff is salaried/volunteers and the event does not need to turn a profit. 

Show that are run FOR PROFIT have to make lots of compromises in pursuit of profit, such as allowing in low quality or buy-sell vendors. I have tried plenty of for-profit shows, and that's where you find these problems. I now avoid these shows. 

As for whether it's a good idea to rotate new artists in regularly, absolutely yes! I've seen several shows that used to be great that died slowly because they failed to do this. I got rotated out of a great show 15 min from me after doing it for 7 years and selling great. I understand why, and there is another show in the same town in a different month that I can still do.  It's part of the business. If you start feeling entitled to be invited to any show, you are hurting yourself and the industry. There's a show that I tried twice but have given up on. The show was trying hard to attract fresh work, but the local artists had  high sense of entitlement. The show gave them too much power, there needs to be a balance of power. I could see that the show would have trouble solving it's problems. 

[neilestrick]

11 minutes ago, GEP said:

The show was trying hard to attract fresh work, but the local artists had  high sense of entitlement. 

This is a common sentiment. For example, Madison Off the Square (Wisconsin artists only) was started because the local artists felt that Madison On the Square wasn't letting in enough local artists. On the Square has no obligation to the local artists. Their focus is on making the show the best they can, not showcasing the locals. Off the square runs on the same days as On the Square, right down the road, which is a whole other issue.

[Mark C.]

All of my current shows are run by non -profits as well just as Mea said above.I gave up on profit run shows some time back.

[Pres]

The Penn State Arts festival for years had much of the same problem with locals. Locals would have to jury in with the over a thousand nation wide and got lost among the numbers. They lost a lot of local support, even though it was run by locals. In the long run they set up separate jurying where locals had to submit slides, and then if pre accepted had to take in pieces representative of their work they would be selling. This second jury would reject some, and accept others. Most of us believed this to be fair, and I did the show for several years under that system, where I never got in before.  A few other things did occur. . . in the beginning they had locals together, then they spread them all over the show. I think we were looked down on by some as when together. Later comments would be, "Oh your local, I did not know that, your work is nice. . . maybe I'll give you a call, but I do want this vase really bad. . . Before you used to hear. . Oh this is all of the local stuff, the good stuff is up the lane.  That was interesting as just 3 booths down from me was Jack Troy, another local!

We did get some snipes from those that juried in among the thousand and had to travel 300 miles or so for the show, but.. . 

best,

Pres

 

 

[Mark C.]

I am on a board for a show thats been going on for 45 years now and although I am out of any jury process (since I still do the show) we do favor locals on a point system over distant artists. We still have about 40-50% distant artists doing the show-most are from Oregon.We are promoting local everything  (food ,art, etc )