pure metals in glazes

[Gonen]

a question 

If I put grinded metals ( they sell them 4000 mesh on aliespress  ) wouldn't they oxidize in the electric kiln to give the colorant of their oxidized form we usually use ? 

like cupper tin cobalt etc. ?  

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004187537341.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.63.7093524a6BeVdN&algo_pvid=fcd23e1e-2c1b-471d-81c1-0771c97beda4&algo_exp_id=fcd23e1e-2c1b-471d-81c1-0771c97beda4-31&pdp_ext_f={"sku_id"%3A"12000028321382122"}&pdp_npi=2%40dis!ILS!60.92!33.5!!!!!%402122443916723461698128843d072d!12000028321382122!sea&curPageLogUid=K3LV5OwAVTFg

 

Edited January 1, 2023 by Gonen

[Min]

The link you posted looks like nickel oxide but I couldn't see that name in the listing specifically. I would email them and ask if that is what it is. I don't know what the purity would be.

[Babs]

I have a friend who has a metal lathe and so has  filings of copper, fine and not so fine. I have drizzled them onto  the textured base of a birdbath, the texture is a swirl made by my finger across the base of the bath. It is first coated with a tin based white glaze and so the filings turn turquoisey green with black where chunky filing landed. 

I've thought of rolling out clay on some filings also and glazing with above glaze but haven't yet. Non functional stuff. Fun to play stimes. Some brass in there too.

[kswan]

Hi @Babs, just a thought but could copper be toxic to birds in a birdbath? They often drink the water too.

[Callie Beller Diesel]

The listing boasts of high purity, I would buy the 100g size to see how it compares. Just poking around the website a bit, it looks like they’ve got a number of common oxides that potters use, although the carbonate forms seem to be absent. The varying price point on the cobalt says to me there’s probably varying purity levels, or the mesh size might vary. If you’re okay with a slightly grainy appearance, or if you have a ball mill, this might not be an issue. 

[Min]

Just from experience, what is posted on that website isn't always the most accurate descriptions of what is actually received. Some things I've ordered from there are great, others not so much. For sure I would buy the smallest amount first and test it out. Also, if you log in to AliExpress and look at things then hold off buying you will often get emails a few days later with reduced prices of what you have been browsing.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Min

[Gonen]

18 hours ago, Min said:

The link you posted looks like nickel oxide but I couldn't see that name in the listing specifically. I would email them and ask if that is what it is. I don't know what the purity would be.

no its just nickel metal "High purity, ultra-fine, conductive, metallic nickel powder for experimental research"

[Gonen]

3 hours ago, Callie Beller Diesel said:

slightly grainy appearance, or if you have a ball mill, this might not be an issue

no , my question is if the metals by itself not in it oxide\carbonate form would produce the same color on oxidation firing as the oxide forms i use too ? because  i think at high temperature and availability of oxygen\water it will do    

[Babs]

6 hours ago, kswan said:

Hi @Babs, just a thought but could copper be toxic to birds in a birdbath? They often drink the water too.

Hmmm, not sure, none dropping off the perch yet. Live in an agricultural area where run off from cropping land not the best. Poor soils also , trace elements, copper manganese and cobalt licks a spreading to promote healthy stock and plant growth, but I get your concern. Maybe I should use for fruit bowls, humans being a more abundant species.:-○.

Being flippant here.

[Babs]

9 minutes ago, Gonen said:

no , my question is if the metals by itself not in it oxide\carbonate form would produce the same color on oxidation firing as the oxide forms i use too ? because  i think at high temperature and availability of oxygen\water it will do    

But as Callie said  ,you will not get the uniformity of colour and it may drop to bottom of glaze bucket

[Magnolia Mud Research]

1 hour ago, Gonen said:

no its just nickel metal "High purity, ultra-fine, conductive, metallic nickel powder for experimental research"

my comment:

I have applied copper wire and iron wire (wire size was between 0.1-0.2 mm diameter) both over and under glazes in both 1000 C oxidation raku firing and cone 10 reduction firing.  The copper wire melts, runs, and is practically "dissolved" into the glazes and makes color between black and red.  The iron wire reacted with the glaze "corroded" the wire and did not "melt"; the glaze color was what you expect if applied as iron oxide; but the wire was not totally reacted because of the wire size.  these data are results of applications of the metal on to the bisque both before and after the glaze slurry applied. 

I have not added metal dust to a glaze slurry; I expect suspension problems and reaction problems between the metal particles and the water part of the glaze slurry. some metal dusts are flammable;  I have no data here.  

I have also used zinc coated iron nails as decorative treatments for objects and the zinc along with the iron work together (and/or against) 

From these examples I concluded the following:
metal particle size is a major variable;  
the composition of the glaze will also control the solubility into the glaze melt;  
firing temperature is a variable, some metals melt, some don't before the final temperature is reached;   

I also have used metal filings sprinkled over glazes and marks were produced.  I have not used aluminum metals but I think they would also produce marks.  Application will be important - as is always for glazes. 

Also keep in mind that most pure metals will have some form of an oxide coating unless the particles are not treated with a oxygen barrier of some sort.  
also filings from many "metals" will be a alloy instead of pure elemental metal.  

all together, Go for it. Assume something, but not a specific something; 
the worst thing would be nothing happening. 

LT
 

[kswan]

2 hours ago, Babs said:

humans being a more abundant species.

8 billion and counting -- yikes!

[Russ]

36 minutes ago, kswan said:

8 billion and counting -- yikes!

Seems alot but the entire population of the earth could stand in the state of Texas and still have plenty of room left over.

[Callie Beller Diesel]

On 1/2/2023 at 1:44 PM, Gonen said:

no , my question is if the metals by itself not in it oxide\carbonate form would produce the same color on oxidation firing as the oxide forms i use too ? because  i think at high temperature and availability of oxygen\water it will do    

So, the valence of the metal can make a difference in your glaze’s outcome, yes, but the degree that it happens to depends on the material, and sometimes the other ingredients in glaze recipe. Mostly, the oxygen or carbon atoms that are attached to the familiar colourants burn off, and aren’t part of the finished glaze at all. The purity of the source of the material will sometimes affect your outcome, and different valences of a colourant may melt differently which can also affect some glazes. Recipe substitutions are possible in many cases without having to first change black iron oxide into red iron oxide though, if that’s what you mean. 

From a glaze calculation standpoint, the important thing to know is how many atoms are being supplied to the recipe by a given ingredient, and you can make substitutions if needed. For instance, you can substitute black iron oxide (Fe3O4) for red iron oxide (Fe203) in a recipe. You’ll need to weigh out less black iron to get the same effect. You can also substitute red or black copper oxide for copper carbonate. In the case of cobalt, the carbonate form supplies fewer cobalt ions to the mix, but both are powerful colourants and even small amounts of the carbonate form will give you a dark blue colour. 

If you aren’t familiar with glazy.org, its a website that offers free glaze calculation software. If you want to figure out how much nickel powder you’d need to add instead of nickel oxide, you can plug your original glaze recipe in and tweak the numbers so they’re close before you begin real life testing. It saves a lot of time. 

 

[Min]

@Gonen, looks like the metallic nickel powder can be turned into nickel oxide by heating it to 400C. If you do buy some I would experiment with doing that rather than using it as is. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel(II)_oxide#:~:text=NiO can be prepared by,by the addition of NiO.

It's a little confusing on that site as at the bottom of the page it does have some oxides like tin oxide and nickel oxide. Prices don't seem great but then I'm not in Israel so I don't know what prices are for you there.