johnjohn Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 Any recommendation on propane setup for an updraft kiln? I am trying to convert a 16 cu. ft gas kiln to propane using a 250 gallon tank. It uses 8 venturi burners. My first test using a 30 PSI adjustable regulator and 3/8 hose took me 8 hours to reach cone 06. The flame looked weak and yellowish. PSI was set around 8 and anything higher would shut the gas off. Is my regulator bad or not the correct for the BTU requirement? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted August 3, 2022 Report Share Posted August 3, 2022 (edited) First natural gas has half the energy of propane so the orifices will be waaaaaay tooooooo laaaaaarge using propane. The normal method to convert is to achieve the same btu per burner with propane as you had with gas. So, gas typically is designed to operate 0-8” (not psi) and propane usually is sized 0-11” (again not psi). Easiest way is to look in an orifice table and reasonably match btu at the max operating pressure. This does require a second regulator for your propane though, (psi to inches) but really improves adjustability a whole bunch. Edited August 3, 2022 by Bill Kielb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly in AK Posted August 12, 2022 Report Share Posted August 12, 2022 On 8/2/2022 at 7:12 PM, Bill Kielb said: First natural gas has half the energy of propane so the orifices will be waaaaaay tooooooo laaaaaarge using propane. The normal method to convert is to achieve the same btu per burner with propane as you had with gas. So, gas typically is designed to operate 0-8” (not psi) and propane usually is sized 0-11” (again not psi). Easiest way is to look in an orifice table and reasonably match btu at the max operating pressure. This does require a second regulator for your propane though, (psi to inches) but really improves adjustability a whole bunch. You need: Proper orifice sizes for lpg and proper regulator for lpg.. Natural gas is “big” and low pressure, needs a big orifice and big pipes to deliver. Putting lpg through that must have been interesting. LPG is concentrated and has loads of pressure. Smaller orifice, more pressure, narrower pipes. Vince Pitelka has an orifice chart on his website. Ward burner is a font of wisdom in this department. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted August 12, 2022 Report Share Posted August 12, 2022 (edited) Have you changed the orfices to propane size? they should be much smaller holes? than Natural gas next the tank has a regulator of shorts and then one should be near kiln?-whats your set up? Edited October 13, 2022 by Mark C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterH Posted August 12, 2022 Report Share Posted August 12, 2022 6 hours ago, Kelly in AK said: Vince Pitelka has an orifice chart on his website. Ward burner is a font of wisdom in this department. http://www.vincepitelka.com/handoutsinformation /https://www.vincepitelka.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Low-Pressure-Gas-Orifice-Chart.pdf http://www.wardburner.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnjohn Posted August 15, 2022 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2022 On 8/12/2022 at 9:03 AM, Mark C. said: Have you changed the orfices to propane size? they should be much small holes? next the tank has a regulator of shorts and then one should be near kiln?-whats your set up? Yes i changed out the orifices. I"m using a separate regulator from the one that is used for the house. I'm thinking the regulator i tested is not suitable for large tanks. It keeps shutting down when i raise the PSI between 5-10. I think this regulator is for small bbq tanks. See image below. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnjohn Posted August 15, 2022 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2022 On 8/12/2022 at 9:03 AM, Mark C. said: Have you changed the orfices to propane size? they should be much small holes? next the tank has a regulator of shorts and then one should be near kiln?-whats your set up? On 8/12/2022 at 9:03 AM, Mark C. said: Have you changed the orfices to propane size? they should be much small holes? next the tank has a regulator of shorts and then one should be near kiln?-whats your set up? I changed the orifices for propane. I have an adjustable regulator by the tank and an adjustable regulator/meter to monitor the psi by the kiln. I have a feeling the regulator I am using isn't suitable for large tanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted August 16, 2022 Report Share Posted August 16, 2022 59 minutes ago, johnjohn said: I changed the orifices for propane. I have an adjustable regulator by the tank and an adjustable regulator/meter to monitor the psi by the kiln. I have a feeling the regulator I am using isn't suitable for large tanks. I think I mentioned this earlier but if not my apology. Just a couple questions: What size were the orifices you removed? what size were the orifices you replaced them with? If you remember just 1 PSI is likely going to be way too much pressure so an easy way for us to confirm is by the orifice size that was used and is being used. So if you can let us know, we may be able to save a bunch of aggravation on regulators, etc… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnjohn Posted August 18, 2022 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2022 Note sure on the size but it was set up for natural gas. My guess is a #28. I replaced it with #38 orifices. I have 8 burners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted August 18, 2022 Report Share Posted August 18, 2022 (edited) So at 16 cu ft, maybe 750,000 btu or in the neighborhood of 90,000 btu per burner so your number 38 orifice is perfect at 11 INCHES of water column pressure. (Chart below) So …. Every 27.72 inches equals 1 psi. Of course your maximum operating pressure from the orifice chart is 11 inches which is 0.396 PSI. So ………. Your final regulator before the kiln orifices needs to be something that reduces the pressure to maybe 14 inches max or if you prefer psi, about 0.396 psi. If you feed these orifices with more than 0.396 PSI or 11 inches of pressure they will probably be way over design. This actually happens to many people as working with such small pressure is just not intuitive. The right way to do this is find out how many btu is stamped on the kiln nameplate, divide it by the number of burners, size your orifices for that output per burner (max) and install a regulator that operates in the right range. For propane that usually is 14 inches and actual operation is set to 11 inches or less. So if your kiln is 750,000 btu then all you need is the right downstream regulator capable of 750,000 btu, 0-14” and can also withstand your inlet pressure. …….. and a decent needle valve to hand operate your burners Edited August 20, 2022 by Bill Kielb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Eberle Posted August 24, 2022 Report Share Posted August 24, 2022 Your issue isn't the regulator nor orifices: It's the 3/8 size line and/or whatever the hole is on the female coupler that screws the whole mess onto the tank. That hole...if it is indeed for a BBQ grill....is TINY. Just drill it out. I've done it....more than once. Works great. If you're getting 5-8PSI with the adjustable regulator...then you're FINE. I use that rig on my twin Ransome B4 on a 1/2" hose to get my wood-soda hybrid kiln back to cone 10 sometimes when my wood isn't good enough...or I run out. My kiln is bigger than yours and I have NO problem getting 500k BTU out of those B4's at 4.5-5psi. My regulator will run well past 7 or 8....which is overkill for me. Yeah - you're fine....but there simply isn't enough gas getting to the burners. Go look at that female tank nut upstream from the regulator. I'll bet you a teapot that the hole in the brass inlet is barely bigger than needle. The wall is thin....just carefully drill it out. As long as you have a high pressure regulator (it sounds like you do), then you're all set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Earley Posted October 10, 2022 Report Share Posted October 10, 2022 Are you using venturi burners or power burners which use a blower? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Banks Posted October 11, 2022 Report Share Posted October 11, 2022 On 8/18/2022 at 11:15 AM, Bill Kielb said: So at 16 cu ft, maybe 750,000 btu this number seems high? or I'm probably missing something Min 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted October 11, 2022 Report Share Posted October 11, 2022 2 hours ago, C.Banks said: this number seems high? or I'm probably missing something Nope probably very high. Best to read the nameplate of the kiln but I think he picked orifices that translate to 90k btu per burner and 8 burners based on a previous size of #28. Reading the nameplate would be best and not working in PSI also really could be relevant here IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted October 11, 2022 Report Share Posted October 11, 2022 According to the data on Ward Burner, if the kiln is 9" IFB, it only needs 16,000btu per cubic foot, so about 256,000btu total. Min 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted October 11, 2022 Report Share Posted October 11, 2022 26 minutes ago, neilestrick said: According to the data on Ward Burner, if the kiln is 9" IFB, it only needs 16,000btu per cubic foot, so about 256,000btu total. Yep, definitely makes sense to read the nameplate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Banks Posted October 13, 2022 Report Share Posted October 13, 2022 (edited) On 10/11/2022 at 10:55 AM, Bill Kielb said: Nope probably very high. Best to read the nameplate of the kiln but I think he picked orifices that translate to 90k btu per burner and 8 burners based on a previous size of #28. Reading the nameplate would be best and not working in PSI also really could be relevant here IMO good thing - the numbers I remember suggested something was amiss there's something witty to say about simple answers and memory loss I'm sure ... Edited October 13, 2022 by C.Banks words Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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