MarkS Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 I was at the local welding supply picking up some things and got to thinking. What if one, by using a flow meter, introduced into a kiln some sort of inert gas - such as argon, helium, nitrogen etc. I know it's a weird question but you never know. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockley Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 I was at the local welding supply picking up some things and got to thinking. What if one, by using a flow meter, introduced into a kiln some sort of inert gas - such as argon, helium, nitrogen etc. I know it's a weird question but you never know. Thanks! In an electric kiln not much except that your oxidation effects would be reduced. If you wanted to stop oxidation with out reduction effects then you could possiblily accomplish that. I have no idea of what your resulting glaze chemistry would be. The notion of adding inert gas to a fuel fired kiln is a non-starter. Fuel kilns use enormous amounts of air in any mode of operation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juli Long Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Explosion?????????? I have not the faintest idea. You are one brave soul!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcia Selsor Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 There are some people who use a small bunsen burner to introduce propane into a kiln to create a reduction atmosphere in an electric kiln. The electric coils fuel the heat to reach temperature but the bunsen burner produces the reduction atmosphere. The coils need to be treated with ITC to protect them from the fuel inside the kiln. Marcia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Unknown Craftsman Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Here is some info on inert gas furnaces : http://www.crystec.com/kllinhe.htm or for reduction in home electric: http://puttgarden.co...fallonator.html Here are some folks that saw the Fallonator in action, including Bill Campbell, John Tilton, Ginny Conrow(!) and others : http://www.puttgarden.com/crystal/workshop/electric_reduction/Page.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkS Posted December 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 Shouldn't explode with inert gas. Oxygen - well that would probably ruin your kiln elements in no time. Don't have any desire to try propane in an electric kiln! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ERS Posted November 2, 2019 Report Share Posted November 2, 2019 Hi, Did you try introducing inert gas into the electric kiln? I was wondering if nitrogen were introduced, if that could cause a reduction atmosphere in a safe way? Thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hulk Posted November 2, 2019 Report Share Posted November 2, 2019 Hi Esther! This thread has been dormant for quite some time ...there are some newer threads here on reduction and electric kilns. My understanding is that what is called "reduction" in ceramic glaze firing is (essentially) CO - carbon monoxide; the influence on the hot glaze (and the clay) due to CO bonding with any available oxygen. As for safe, flooding your kiln with nitrogen may not damage your kiln, however, there should be zero chance of any person's (or pet's) air supply being displaced by nitrogen. Collapse due to oxygen deprivation is very sudden - I've seen it*. Neutral don't mean safe. While on the subject, reduction has its own perils - there's fuel, and exhaust containing CO. I am curious, any difference between neutral and oxygen glaze fire? If so, what and how? *Two guys walking along the top of the furnace, bungs open, cool and purge for maintenance. The lead guy appeared to stumble, then collapsed in a heap; the second guy runs in the other direction a few steps, takes a deep breath, then runs back, grabs the guy and drags him away, then gets him breathing again - it all happened in less than fifteen seconds. The second guy got suspended from work for three weeks for failure to follow protocol; the first guy got a week's suspension. The base protocol violation - going anywhere near an open bung whilst nitrogen is venting - well, they both were lucky, and the second guy saved the first guy's life. The other protocol violation - never enter a closed vessel to assist someone who is having an atmosphere problem (so often the rescuer also succumbs...); second guy didn't get fired, on account of there weren't no "vessel" and he perceived the general boundary of warm mostly nitrogen. There were a few witnesses, lucky Hulk wasn't the only one, smash. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liambesaw Posted November 3, 2019 Report Share Posted November 3, 2019 I don't think nitrogen would do a whole lot. Reduction has less to do with a lack of oxygen and more to do with an excess of carbon monoxide. Carbon monoxide strips oxygen molecules from metallic oxides to form carbon dioxide. Nitrogen doesn't do this, and if it did, it would create a few very nasty gasses as a result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted November 3, 2019 Report Share Posted November 3, 2019 1 minute ago, liambesaw said: I don't think nitrogen would do a whole lot. Reduction has less to do with a lack of oxygen and more to do with an excess of carbon monoxide. Carbon monoxide strips oxygen molecules from metallic oxides to form carbon dioxide. Nitrogen doesn't do this, and if it did, it would create a few very nasty gasses as a result. Reduction is gaining of electrons, that should make things clear as mud! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted November 3, 2019 Report Share Posted November 3, 2019 4 hours ago, Hulk said: Hi Esther! This thread has been dormant for quite some time ...there are some newer threads here on reduction and electric kilns. My understanding is that what is called "reduction" in ceramic glaze firing is (essentially) CO - carbon monoxide; the influence on the hot glaze (and the clay) due to CO bonding with any available oxygen. As for safe, flooding your kiln with nitrogen may not damage your kiln, however, there should be zero chance of any person's (or pet's) air supply being displaced by nitrogen. Collapse due to oxygen deprivation is very sudden - I've seen it*. Neutral don't mean safe. While on the subject, reduction has its own perils - there's fuel, and exhaust containing CO. I am curious, any difference between neutral and oxygen glaze fire? If so, what and how? *Two guys walking along the top of the furnace, bungs open, cool and purge for maintenance. The lead guy appeared to stumble, then collapsed in a heap; the second guy runs in the other direction a few steps, takes a deep breath, then runs back, grabs the guy and drags him away, then gets him breathing again - it all happened in less than fifteen seconds. The second guy got suspended from work for three weeks for failure to follow protocol; the first guy got a week's suspension. The base protocol violation - going anywhere near an open bung whilst nitrogen is venting - well, they both were lucky, and the second guy saved the first guy's life. The other protocol violation - never enter a closed vessel to assist someone who is having an atmosphere problem (so often the rescuer also succumbs...); second guy didn't get fired, on account of there weren't no "vessel" and he perceived the general boundary of warm mostly nitrogen. There were a few witnesses, lucky Hulk wasn't the only one, smash. Carry on. Good story and a good example of being cautious with fumes. Potters are inventive and there can be dangers associated with that. Especially invisible danger and the actual speed with which it can happen. Heck, even the space station must have really specific attention given to ventilation especially in sleeping areas. In near zero G plain ole carbon dioxide can collect around an astronaut very quickly and cause damage or death. stay safe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ERS Posted November 21, 2019 Report Share Posted November 21, 2019 Only saw all your responses now.. :o/ In any event, thank you for your valuable input. My understanding is that while this option is not relevant most glazes, what about the celadons? Has anyone actually tried this? In Ceramic Review, Sept/Oct Issue 83, there's an article about this. Is anyone familiar with this? Thanks! Esther Rena Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hulk Posted November 21, 2019 Report Share Posted November 21, 2019 Hi Esther, Current issue (Nov/Dec 2019) is #300 ...Sept/Oct 1983 then, "Nitrogen Reduction in Electric Kilns" aah, ok. The text of that article is available online, for Ceramic Review magazine subscribers only. https://reader.exacteditions.com/issues/66238/page/3 Would you, could you expand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted November 21, 2019 Report Share Posted November 21, 2019 9 hours ago, ERS said: Only saw all your responses now.. :o/ In any event, thank you for your valuable input. My understanding is that while this option is not relevant most glazes, what about the celadons? Has anyone actually tried this? In Ceramic Review, Sept/Oct Issue 83, there's an article about this. Is anyone familiar with this? Thanks! Esther Rena My thought being Nitrogen I believe is inert so not likely to react but I truly do not know and the potential risks outweigh the reward in my mind at the moment so I am not motivated to research it actually. Is there an effect you contemplate and I am also unsure what quality of celedons would imply they are more reactive? Just asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.