neilestrick
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Posts posted by neilestrick
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1 hour ago, terraworks57 said:
Could this error be caused by a brownout? The reason I am asking is that this has happened before and I just restarted my kiln and it finished the firing by refiring. This time it read that it had reached cone 5-6 (by the hours it took). When I pushed the start button this time it was just under 800 degrees and it is now refiring... I guess I could have let it finish cooling down but the fan was not on... Any thoughts or suggestions? Thank you.
What is error 8 on that controller? This one?:
In CONE FIRE mode, the temperature is falling in the last segment instead ofincreasing.It could be because of a power outage, but it could also be a relay sticking when it gets hot. If it's a relay, it'll probably totally fail soon. Were there other signs of power outage in your building- clocks flashing, etc? -
Hot spots at the elements connections don't cause the relays to fail, they just cause that connection to fail. There's no safe way to get access to a Skutt relay while it's under load, due to the way the box is constructed. You just track the number of firings you have on a set of relays, and if they're burning out under 150 firings then you replace the wiring harness and it's good to go.
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@Caroline Ennis One of the best features of the Skutt and Bailey wheels is the large splash pan. It keeps the studio much cleaner.
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38 minutes ago, PeterH said:
But the ends seem to have 2x 8.9ohm elements in parallel, and the centre 3x 11.3 ohm elements in parallel.
The top and bottom sections do not have the same 2 elements in them. The 1231PK has 2 top/bottom elements, 2 intermediate elements, and 3 center elements. So top and bottom sections each have 2 different element in them- T/B and intermediate. They're wired with crimp connectors, so you can't unhook them, which is why Skutt only publishes the resistance of each section, not of each element.
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@Lilith Rockett I would still like you to check the temperature of the power wires when the kiln is reaching its peak temp. I assume you have a disconnect box by the kiln? Open that up and see if the wires are hot in there. Also feel the whip everywhere from the kiln to the disconnect and see if it's getting hot. Also check your breaker and see if it's running hot.
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36 minutes ago, PeterH said:
Problem 1.
28+23+28=79Aamps, but the 240V kiln seems to be rated at 60amps.It's a 1231PK 240V1P, so 72 amps. @Lilith Rockett Is your voltage right at 240 or is it running high? What size breaker is it on?
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I use the wax from Ceramic Supply Chicago, and it works fine as long you don't let it dry too long, like don't let it sit overnight. It also depends on how soft the clay is. Too dry and the clay will flake, too. I typically apply the wax and then cut my lines as soon as it's dry to the touch.
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I have 9 Skutt wheels, and love them. Their 1/3hp models can handle just about anything you would want to make.
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Is it in a very cold environment, like a garage? It could be that the pyrometer is not able to read below a certain temp. Also check that the two wires are connected to the correct ends of the thermocouple, red wire to the red end.
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46 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said:
Good catch & bad math
interesting, does this fire 30 cy on and 30 cy off at 100% output?
I think it just stays full on at 100%. I haven't really tested that, though. I just assumed there was no reason for it to cycle at 100%.
I should have said 'up to' 500ms. It's cool to listen to it cycle. If you get up close to the kiln you can hear it like a steady drumbeat hum.
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8 hours ago, PeterH said:
PS Question for the experts. Do the solid-state relays switch at a sufficiently high frequency for the current sensing to accurately measure the time-averaged current?
The controller cycles the SSR's twice per second (500ms). When I put a meter on mine it gives a fluttery reading.
@Lilith Rockett This is a long shot, but 3 times in the last 20 years I had kilns similar in size to yours have a very strange stalling problem. It turned out to be an electrical interference issue (there are a lot of magnetic fields and whatnot created by the elements and bricks), and the solution was to make sure the controller was directly grounded, not just through the transformer. It's an easy fix and worth trying if yours isn't already grounded that way. Take a look at the backside of your controller, there needs to be a wire that goes directly from the Center Tap terminal to the grounding stud. Not to the transformer or anywhere else first. You may need to get a terminal doubler so you can add another wire.
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There's nothing more or less safe about 3 wire vs 4 wire. It just depends on the needs of the kiln. Having a ground is the real safety issue, which you do. As Dick said the kiln needs to be on a circuit that is 125-150% of the draw of the kiln. I think your kiln draws around 24 amps? Check the serial plate to confirm, but if that's the case it should be on a 30 amp breaker.
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@JohnnyK I just had a nice conversation with Steve at L&L, and he confirmed what I said above. The non-twisted end will not heat nearly as much as the coils inside the kiln do. For one, the coils feed off each other and run hotter- this is why they get hot spots when they bunch up at the corners. Plus the coils are in an insulated environment, whereas the end can dissipate heat fairly well, assuming the control box has good air flow.
That said, there are a couple of things that may be an issue with your Cress compared to the L&L. First, the L&L element connection has a much greater surface area in the connection by using bolts, nuts, and washers. Plus all of that hardware is stainless steel, which is more durable and won't expand and contract as much as brass or copper connectors. The second potential issue is frying out the feeder wires if they're pressed up against the element connections when you close up the box. The L&L control box design directs the wires away from the connections so it's not an issue with their kilns.
At this point I don't think there is really anything you can do besides fire the kiln and see what happens, but I think there's a good chance it will be fine.
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Some more info on non-twisted ends HERE. I'll have more info on this later today. I'm going to see if there's something about the L&L element connection system that makes non-twisted ends more viable than other element connection types (crimp, screw). There is no difference in element life between the twisted and non-twisted in L&L kilns. They are not more likely to burn out at the element connections or through-hole or anything like that.
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@Lilith Rockett Have you had the service wiring checked out? I had a customer once where everything on the kiln checked out just fine- element resistance was dead on, thermocouples and relays were new, etc, but it kept erroring out at higher temps. Turns out the outlet and power cord were heating up and affect the draw once the kiln had been running for several hours and getting up to higher temps. Also, that kiln was kinda buggy from the beginning and really burned up relays fast, so we isolated the controller from the main power with its own 120 volt plug, and that fixed the bugginess.
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L&L does not twist the ends on a lot of their elements, especially the beefy ones. The elements on my eQ2827-3 are not twisted, and they do not glow when the kiln is firing. I think that a straight wire does not heat the same as the coiled wire, which makes sense because I know that coil density is one of the factors in element design. I've sent an email off to L&L to get more information on this, but for now I would say that @JohnnyK your elements are going to be fine. The resistance difference is not going to be an issue at all.
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9 hours ago, Lilith Rockett said:
Almost every part of the kiln has been changed out, and now finally I even have a whole new box on it to try to eliminate the issue. Sadly it made no difference.
Including a new controller and relays?
Have you put a meter on the elements while the kiln is firing to verify that they're getting power? Checked voltage and amperage draw of the middle section under power?
S and K type thermocouples being wrong should result in much bigger issues than this. Thermocouples being connect to the wrong sections should result in a pretty quick error, as the sections will heat much too quickly.
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HERE is the control board manufacturer's page.
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21 hours ago, Hulk said:
Alpine may still be responsive?
Nope. Alpine hasn't seen one of these wheels in decades. When I worked for them 2001-2004 I don't think we even had plans for them. I remember organizing all their wiring diagrams and assembly blueprints before I left, but not seeing anything for the wheel. I believe they were made when Alpine was in California, which was before they were in Elk Grove Village, IL, before they were in Sturtevant, WI, before they were wherever they are now.
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There is very little information available on those wheels. As far as I know there isn't anyone active on the forum who has one, but fingers crossed someone will pop up.
Typically wheels have 3 major components- the pedal which contains some sort of potentiometer, the control board, and the motor. The motor is not usually the problem when things go wrong with a wheel. 99% of the time it's the pedal or the control board. Have you tried taking the pedal out of the equation and running the controller directly to the motor? That would help narrow down where the problem is happening. Also check the cord grips where the pedal cord goes into the pedal assembly and the control box. On a couple of my wheels I've had the cord wear out at the cord grip at the pedal, and the pedal has stopped working. It's possible those wires have worn through and they're grounding out on each other or on the pedal itself.
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1 hour ago, Bill Kielb said:
This is interesting in the design of top and bottom elements are prox 6400 watts and the center is prox 5000 watts (as expected, most loss at top and bottom and they assist the center) but the experience is the center is not firing as hot. I wonder if the zones are out of sequence with the thermocouples, board connections or even the relay wiring. In addition to resistance I think I would make sure the zone sequencing is absolutely correct. IE zone 1 tc = zone 1 = zone 1 relay and elements. Cross firing (or a really really bad center element) is a potential reason that would explain the center to be cooler. Very odd! Positionally it would be hard to mix these up and get the current result.
If the zones were not connected to the correct thermocouples it would error out right near the beginning of the firing.
I totally had that backwards in my head, thought the center was firing hot! My bad.
I'd still check the resistance, though and make sure you've got the correct elements. Also make sure a center element hasn't burned out.
interesting, does this fire 30 cy on and 30 cy off at 100% output?
New Relays Failed in a New Way
in Equipment Use and Repair
Posted
It's not just a Skutt thing. Kiln power wires wear out and must be replaced at some point.