Orange Malcom Davis Shino -- Hiow?

[Damienart]

HI all,

 

I've been having a terrible time on a large commission piece for a client. She wants the bright Orange Malcom Davis color -- which is usually obtained by waxing the glaze after application to prevent carbon trapping, and then firing in a reduction atmosphere. I mistakenly thought the orange came from the soda ash, because of how it will turn the clay body orange if there's no glaze on it (mask off a portion of the surface and apply MD shino to the rest -- the masked section will be orangish around the edges where the soda ash soaked thru the clay with the water.)

 

Therefore I tried getting the pieces really 'Frosty" with soda ash coating the surface, but then running it in Oxidation early to avoid carbon trapping. I fired to about cone 06 in Ox then heavy reduction thru the rest of the firing, and got a boring tan color. Now after I've done some research I find that the orange comes from the Neph Sy and other constituents, and not the soda ash, and that since the soda melts at 1560F, this effectively seals the surface, so my early Oxidation was sealed in and the subsequent Reduction had no effect.

 

Now I have to reglaze and refire this piece -- any suggestions on how to make this happen? I'll run reduction from the start, and wax the glaze after it dries. I want consistent bright orange here, like the top of the piece at the top of this page: http://www.mudfire.com/malcolm-davis-am08.htm

[SShirley]

I think a thick coating goes beige and a thin coat goes orange. Unless it carbon traps, of course.

[Brian Reed]

My experience is that Shirley is right. I think that if you want an orange just glaze and put it in the kiln and fire soon after applying. If you let it sit the carbon trapping will be more prevalent. I also would just do a regular reduction firing, heavy reduction should work fine, but do not over fire because in my experience it changes the color.

 

 

I also do not think that you are going to get good results with refiring that same piece. you will not get the absorption of the glaze into the clay body. In my experience you will need to start all over with a new piece.

 

 

 

Good Luck.

[Mark C.]

I agree with all above -Start over glaze thin and fire it soon and in reduction and do not overfire.

What has not been said is when someone wants it to look a certain way and it's reduction glaze fired that sets up an problem-As one who has made his living with reduction high fire glazes for over 3 decades I never say it will be this or that as its always different and you need the customer to agree to a range of color outcomes as you will not be able to control it that well.

In low fire its like paint in reduction its like a wing and a prayer-Let your customer know the color variations and see if they can be ok with it first.

If you are firing a whole kiln load and you have only one pot on order that is the one that will go sideways most of the time.-Its just that way.

Mark

[OffCenter]

Of all glazes to reproduce, a shino is one of the most difficult. Malcolm Davis spent a good part of his life striving to get those results with shinos. To point at one of his pots and say, "I'm going to put that color on my pot" is sorta like watching Mark Spitz swim then jump into a pool expecting to match his time. But, good luck anyway. If you're lucky you may get something close enough to satisfy someone who hasn't looked closely at his pots.

 

Jim

[smastca]

Have a look at this article:

http://mudfireclayworks.blogspot.ca/2012/01/as-far-as-i-know-every-pottery-teacher.html

[TJR]

I agree with all above -Start over glaze thin and fire it soon and in reduction and do not overfire.

What has not been said is when someone wants it to look a certain way and it's reduction glaze fired that sets up an problem-As one who has made his living with reduction high fire glazes for over 3 decades I never say it will be this or that as its always different and you need the customer to agree to a range of color outcomes as you will not be able to control it that well.

In low fire its like paint in reduction its like a wing and a prayer-Let your customer know the color variations and see if they can be ok with it first.

If you are firing a whole kiln load and you have only one pot on order that is the one that will go sideways most of the time.-Its just that way.

Mark

 

 

Mark;

A good name for a pottery studio would be; "On a Wing and a Prayer Studios."

Been there myself, man. Best not to make promises with reduction glazes.

TJR.

[OffCenter]

I agree with all above -Start over glaze thin and fire it soon and in reduction and do not overfire.

What has not been said is when someone wants it to look a certain way and it's reduction glaze fired that sets up an problem-As one who has made his living with reduction high fire glazes for over 3 decades I never say it will be this or that as its always different and you need the customer to agree to a range of color outcomes as you will not be able to control it that well.

In low fire its like paint in reduction its like a wing and a prayer-Let your customer know the color variations and see if they can be ok with it first.

If you are firing a whole kiln load and you have only one pot on order that is the one that will go sideways most of the time.-Its just that way.

Mark

 

 

How things change. Now reduction firing is one of the most predictable firings. While there may be slight color variations and minor unpredictability, any competent production potter firing reduction knows what he will see when he opens the kiln (barring a big screw up or accident). The real wing and prayer firing is with salt/soda and especially wood--and, surprisingly for some, even electric firings. Putting computers on electric kilns changed everything, making firing an electric kiln a bit of a science and art. Now, people work much harder coming up with the perfect program for several different kinds of glazes in an electric kiln that they ever did figuring out when and how much to reduce a gas kiln. The carefully controlled ramps and holds to control cooling necessary to form the micro crystals necessary for interesting matte glazes can be a disaster for glossy glazes that need different holds and fast cooling to a certain point or satin or other glazes that need other programs.

 

Jim

[TJR]

I agree with all above -Start over glaze thin and fire it soon and in reduction and do not overfire.

What has not been said is when someone wants it to look a certain way and it's reduction glaze fired that sets up an problem-As one who has made his living with reduction high fire glazes for over 3 decades I never say it will be this or that as its always different and you need the customer to agree to a range of color outcomes as you will not be able to control it that well.

In low fire its like paint in reduction its like a wing and a prayer-Let your customer know the color variations and see if they can be ok with it first.

If you are firing a whole kiln load and you have only one pot on order that is the one that will go sideways most of the time.-Its just that way.

Mark

 

 

How things change. Now reduction firing is one of the most predictable firings. While there may be slight color variations and minor unpredictability, any competent production potter firing reduction knows what he will see when he opens the kiln (barring a big screw up or accident). The real wing and prayer firing is with salt/soda and especially wood--and, surprisingly for some, even electric firings. Putting computers on electric kilns changed everything, making firing an electric kiln a bit of a science and art. Now, people work much harder coming up with the perfect program for several different kinds of glazes in an electric kiln that they ever did figuring out when and how much to reduce a gas kiln. The carefully controlled ramps and holds to control cooling necessary to form the micro crystals necessary for interesting matte glazes can be a disaster for glossy glazes that need different holds and fast cooling to a certain point or satin or other glazes that need other programs.

 

Jim

 

 

Jim;

Call it a Wing and a Prayer Pottery Studio for salt/soda, and especially for wood-and even electric Firings Studio!

TJR.

[OffCenter]

 

Jim;

Call it a Wing and a Prayer Pottery Studio for salt/soda, and especially for wood-and even electric Firings Studio!

TJR.

 

 

 

Sounds good and would look great on a business card.

 

Jim

[neilestrick]

What kind of clay are you using? Davis shino works best on porcelain. Iron in the clay will make it go more gold. If you want the bright orange, you still have to fire it in fairly heavy and early reduction. Reduction should start no later than cone 012. Cover the piece with wax to prevent the soda ash from coming up to the surface and let it dry completely before firing. Fire hot, like 10 flat.

[Guest JBaymore]

Some of the issue is also likely "perceptural". When you put the peachy red/orange blush of an slight iron bearing high aluumina shino directly in a field of BLACK (the carbon trap around the waxed areas) ..... the peach looks far more red/orange to the eye.

 

That same color all by itself covering a large area will look less bright.

 

 

 

The reddish/orange color comes from a trace amount of iron in a high alumina glass matrix glaze.

 

best,

 

.......................john

[bciskepottery]

Maybe just try using a thin shino wash and then firing.

[AtomicAxe]

Of all glazes to reproduce, a shino is one of the most difficult. Malcolm Davis spent a good part of his life striving to get those results with shinos. To point at one of his pots and say, "I'm going to put that color on my pot" is sorta like watching Mark Spitz swim then jump into a pool expecting to match his time. But, good luck anyway. If you're lucky you may get something close enough to satisfy someone who hasn't looked closely at his pots.

 

Jim

 

 

This. This SO fricken hard.

 

I spent a year testing shino glazes trying to predict it's carbon trapping potential. I mapped my colleges gas kiln 8 times by filling it completely with shino cups and firing ... shinos are unpredictable at best ... and the only thing you can consistantly get is creamy white with a little black carbon trapping. you want the best results? map your kiln, fire in medium to heavy reduction and when glazing, glazing should be dip, wipe, place in kiln with firing soon after finished glazing. WHen the glaze dries, the soda ash comes to the surface and does not set in the glaze, only on top of it ... so the less time it sits, the more the soda ash is in the glaze and can trap various colors in it. Even then ... if the customer whats a specific glaze color ... better make about 20 of them and glaze all the same hoping ONE might get what you want. Even then, customer might not be happy.

 

Business side note, when you offer custom art to someone, try not to offer options that are hard to repeat since the process is largely out of your hands and more in the kiln gods. It will save your rep and make your life easier.

 

I wish you luck, you will need it.